PoL & population density

[Hairfoot]

Leafing through some Forgotten Realms materials, I notice that the population of communities has roughly doubled between 2e and 3e. The Realms is currently full of small cities with populations ranging from 6000 into tens of thousands.

For a points-of-light setting, what should the population layout be like? I'm imagining a handful of walled citadel capitals, with fortified towns along trade routes. It's hard to imagine homely little hamlets surviving in such a dangerous, WHFRP-ish setting, except in rare civilised areas.

What think you? I'd also like to know from ENworld's historians which era of real-world history is most analogous with a points-of-light setting.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Well for my own PoL world, I have a couple large cities, with populations numbering in the 100,000s. These are rarer though and are generally built upon the remains of ancient cities.

There are scattered around the major-cities, towns with a couple thousand population. Then there are small towns and villages with a thousand or less population. There are also numerous caravan groups with around 100-200 population.

The maximum world population in my world is around 12 million, but this is down from 34 million, prior to the 7 Ravages (complementary events to the Spellplague in my world).

I think the best historical representations of PoL population would be medieval-Europe, you had major cities with larger populations but not astronomical because of disease and space, then you have smaller keeps and towns/villages which are kept lower from disease, malnutrition, war, etc. I imagine the largest cities in PoL to be like 1500's London, Paris and Rome.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Leafing through some Forgotten Realms materials, I notice that the population of communities has roughly doubled between 2e and 3e. The Realms is currently full of small cities with populations ranging from 6000 into tens of thousands.

For a points-of-light setting, what should the population layout be like? I'm imagining a handful of walled citadel capitals, with fortified towns along trade routes. It's hard to imagine homely little hamlets surviving in such a dangerous, WHFRP-ish setting, except in rare civilised areas.

I feel the same way. Every population is going to need defenses of some sort.

Which actually was something I was wondering about when reading the recent elf fluff. They're described as nomads who live in teepees and stuff. How do they defend themselves from orc raids and such? That seems like a very dangerous way to live; walls are much safer.

What think you? I'd also like to know from ENworld's historians which era of real-world history is most analogous with a points-of-light setting.

I was originally thinking the 6th century seemed right, after the fall of Rome/Nerath, but before the rise of the European kingdom-states. But on second thought, there's really no real-world equivalent. In the real world there are no orcs or giants that contested human lands, so there were never broad stretches of the world that were off limits to humans. They might have been off limits to Englishman, or whatever allegiance you choose, but that's not really the same.

I think your original intuition about walled towns and citadels along trade routes is the right one. Points of light, arranged along rivers and ancient roads, but there really shouldn't be any sense of borders or "geographic control."

One thing I haven't figured out in my own mind is how much land is under farmland, or used for herds. Farms and herders any great distance from city walls will be some great danger, so without a lot of land, there isn't a lot of food, resulting in smaller populations. I don't know where the balance is.

 

[Lurks-no-More]

Which actually was something I was wondering about when reading the recent elf fluff. They're described as nomads who live in teepees and stuff. How do they defend themselves from orc raids and such? That seems like a very dangerous way to live; walls are much safer.

Superior scouts, camouflage, traps and maintaining a well-armed militia force of every able-bodied elf (explaining why they are all capable archers).

Further, didn't R&C fluff indicate that things have been getting tougher for elves, and that's why so many of them have left their original forests and moved into, or near, the human communities?

 

[Khuxan]

It could be any population - an Enworldian from South America talked about how the situation there is much like points of light because the lawful authorities cannot exert their will over the entire city. I think it's got more to do with the dangers present and the rule of law than the population of the cities.

 

[Kintara]

I feel the same way. Every population is going to need defenses of some sort.

Which actually was something I was wondering about when reading the recent elf fluff. They're described as nomads who live in teepees and stuff. How do they defend themselves from orc raids and such? That seems like a very dangerous way to live; walls are much safer.

Typical human blather.

 

[Aloïsius]

I think the best historical representations of PoL population would be medieval-Europe

Which one ? There was less than 5 millions people living in France (roughly half the population of Europe until the 18th century lived in France) in the 9th century (after the vikings/sarazins/hungarians triple combo invasion), but more than 15 millions at the end of the 13th century, and it fall back to 11 or so after the black plague and the 100 years war.
Same thing with the Antiquity : Gaul numbered probably 6 or 7 millions people just before the roman invasion, probably less than 4 millions after, and then it propably increased up to 7 or 8 millions before falling anew during the barbarians invasions.

So, if you realy want a "point of light" feel, you have to choose the real dark ages Europe, either 6th or 7th century AD, or 10th century AD, after the collapse of the Carolingian empire.

That means roughly a density < 10 hab/km² (or 38 habitants per square mile).

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Nah, for a real PoL campaign you go with North America after the great plagues where the highest population density North of central Mexico is 1 million people hanging out in the whole state of California.

There was probably a roughly equivalent population for the whole of the US East Coast.



Nomads are going to do fine in such a setting.

 

[Irda Ranger]

It could be any population - an Enworldian from South America talked about how the situation there is much like points of light because the lawful authorities cannot exert their will over the entire city. I think it's got more to do with the dangers present and the rule of law than the population of the cities.

City size is ultimately limited by food supply though. While the Brazilian favelas are off limits to government authorities, their inhabitants don't go out on raids and burn up crops and butcher cattle. Orcs and dragons do. Since the OP was asking about total population size, the amount of field you can protect from raiders is relevant.

A useful unit of measurement to know is the "koku", a Japanese term that means "the amount of rice that will feed one man for one year." That much rice is about a cubic meter in size and weighs 330 lbs, dry. How much acreage is required to grow a koku depends on a lot of factors, and the variance in the real world is extraordinary. Some Japanese farmers average 11,000 lbs of rice per acre (~33.3 koku), but the national average is lower. Arkansas, as a State, averaged 6,700 lbs (~20 koku) per acre in 2005. The US average as a whole was 6,900 lbs (~21 koku) in 2004.

That's using modern fertilizers and tractors though. India in 1986 grew less than a third of what Japan grew per acre (though they may have improved since). D&D-world doesn't have the modern advantages. But it does have Druids and Agri-Clerics with Cure Blight, Plant Growth and Control Weather. Which works out better? I can't say.

But if you want a "back of the envelope" model for population size, figure out acreage under control of the local population and decide how many koku of rice/wheat/oats, etc. that said land grows per acre. Multiply and ta da, local population. Example follows:

Crandonford (Human town)
- Crandonford controls an area of land stretching one mile from its city center in all directions. This means that once you're more than a 15-minute brisk walk from the Mayor's house, you're in The Wild.
- A one-mile-radius circle gives us 3.14 square miles, or ~2010 acres. Between the town itself, the river, a rocky meadow or two, and some road, assume that only 40% of the land is farmed. 804 acres of farmland.
- Crandonford doesn't have any John Deer powered tractors, but it does have a Cleric of Chauntea. It grows 5000 lbs (~15 koku) of "food" per acre. Multiply that by 804 and you find out that Crandonford can feed 12,185 people.

But that's a max population assuming all food is consumed locally. It's probably safe to assume that half of that food or more is traded to the Dwarven mining town down-river in exchange for metal goods; and some to the elves in exchange for magicy stuff. It's still conceivable though that Crandonford will have a population of about ~5,000 souls (most of whom are probably farmers).

So if you want to know population sizes, just ask where the food comes from and how much there is. That's your answer.

 

[bgaesop]

Typical human blather.

Yeah, there's no better way to avoid having your city sacked than to not have your city in the same spot the scouts found it. It's also a great way to get the orc chieftain to kill his scout!