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Message: <blockquote data-quote="mlund" data-source="post: 5974066" data-attributes="member: 50304">OK, I see what you mean.I disagree with a dismissive attitude towards game theory wonkery, though. You have to have in game theory, too. I've seen too many games fail, decline, or simply never live up to expectations because it took years for players to finally articulate clearly what the problem was to others - and it's always been some sort of game theory issue at the root.Yes and no.Most encounters should be challenging. The risk of failure is the reason why people play games with randomization. The issue is the ratio of risk-to-reward and cost-to-benefit - not the mere existence of challenge or risk.Eh, it probably has a bit to do with fragility at that level and some system adjustment more than anything else. 8 rounds of combat in Caverns flew by compared to most 3E and 4E experiences I've seen.The general disappointment of the players was the first part. They were not amused with the idea that in-game they'd gotten about 30 feet into the Caves and spent less time than a commercial break for television in what they considered to be active adventuring before they had to step back and consider an 8-hour nap.The fact that when they calmly weighed their options there was no reason to accept the increased risks. No carrots. No sticks.Having a better narrative flow would've been nice, certainly. Having anything positive dangling out there so the players wouldn't have felt like idiots for incurring more risk would've been nice.No. It would invite discontent and the perception that I was trying to punish them with my own artificial constructs for not playing the game the way I wanted them to.In fact I did have the Kobolds bug out after they rested (later, after they killed the chieftain). The Kobolds took everything of value they could and left traps behind. The players got the primary loot from the chieftain, though, so there wasn't too much grumbling.Plus they weren't entirely enthused with the idea of having to kill any kobold matrons and pups in the common area anyway.Actually, I think that's questionable data since we're dealing with level 1 characters anyway. When you have 2 spells a day and blow 50% of your spells in a single fight its hard to call that "going nova." When you have 4 spells at each 3rd, 2nd, and 1st level and you burn through half of them in a single go you've got a very different problem.A party that's behavior is to drop 2x fireball, 1x haste, 3x cure serious wounds, and then camp out  because the Cleric and Wizard have burned most of their meaningful juice for the day after the first encounter is a different kettle of fish than a bunch of umpteen HP characters who are dying after two lucky dagger throws from some kobolds.So, to a real extent zooming down on a single instance of low-level play sometimes isn't as helpful to the big-picture view as surveying a broad experience across various levels of play.- Marty Lund</blockquote>

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