Poll: Power creep in 3.5, how significant?

[IceFractal]

Minor power creep, with the exception of some obviously broken stuff. But then again, I don't consider anything weaker than a core Cleric/Druid to be power creep. Yes, maybe those classes should be toned down. But as long as they're core, other classes like Fighters and Sorcerers deserve to be equally powerful.

 

[BryonD]

I went with choice #2, significant.

I might have gone with #3 before the publication of Bo9S.

That is exactly the issue I'm debating. Bo9S was bad. But I'm not sure if one bad apple spoils the whole bunch.

 

[airwalkrr]

Based solely on the campaign setting-independent books (not FR or Eberron books for example), I would say that there is a list of offending items that can be counted on both hands, and maybe require a few toes. Oddly enough, three of the biggest offenders are found in the core rules.

Power Attack
Metamagic Rods
Multiclassing (too good, too easy, and no drawbacks--it should be less beneficial and have more drawbacks)
Sudden Metamagic Feats
Divine Metamagic
Divine Insight
Warblade
Elusive Target
Radiant Servant of Pelor
Frenzied Berzerker
Craft Contingent Spell
Vow of Poverty
Warshaper

Now Power Attack in and of itself is not that bad, but if I take Power Attack off the list of things that I think are overpowered, a number of other things immediately jump on that I have a problem with, such as:

Leap Attack
Shock Trooper
Dervish
Wraithstrike
Exotic Weapon Master
and more...

If Power Attack were just toned down a touch so that it wasn't so easy to add stacking "doubling" bonuses, then I think all this stuff is fine. If the bonuses are limited to "half-double" then that would probably eliminate most problems I have with it.

But overall, I think 3.5 is a well-designed, well-balanced system.

 

[Sejs]

There's some minor creep, partly owing to any given system wanting to start with a pretty generic, configurable base to build from.

Most of the egregious offenders stand out sharply and are easily cut off at the pass by the DM. Frenzied Berzerker, Wraithstrike, certain VoP problems, polymorph abuse, etc, etc.

Probably the worst examples of geniune power creep (instead of just balance oversight) would be the revision of druids and dwarves from 3e to 3.5e; no particular justification.. they just got... better.

 

[Sejs]

If Power Attack were just toned down a touch so that it wasn't so easy to add stacking "doubling" bonuses, then I think all this stuff is fine.

Said it before, I'll say it again: Power Attack should have been a -1 to hit/+0.5 damage with light weapons, and -1 to hit/+1.5 damage with two-handed weapons. Make it match the off-hand str mod / 2h weapon str mod rules, instead of the 0-for-0/2-for-1 thing it does now.

And I would've loved it if Combat Expertise had a greater return if you were using a shield, but that's just dreaming on my part.

 

[Darklone]

airwalkrr: Multiclassing is too powerful?

I guess if we'd give it a go and discuss that (again), we should rather open another thread

I agree about the rest.

 

[Darklone]

And I would've loved it if Combat Expertise had a greater return if you were using a shield, but that's just dreaming on my part.

IMHO shield fighting is the better TWF... something I don't agree with at all. That should be changed.

 

[EyeontheMountain]

Said it before, I'll say it again: Power Attack should have been a -1 to hit/+0.5 damage with light weapons, and -1 to hit/+1.5 damage with two-handed weapons. Make it match the off-hand str mod / 2h weapon str mod rules, instead of the 0-for-0/2-for-1 thing it does now..

Yeah, I don't gettaht change at all. I use the 3.0 version in my 3.5 gmaes.

 

[Li Shenron]

I can't really evaluate how significant it is since I have played 3.5 only about half a year (before reverting to 3.0) during which we played only with core material.

Generally speaking, I've heard about enough many things that make me definitely think that a character using Complete XYZ is indeed more powerful than he would be by using core only.

Actually I'm not that much concerned about Prestige Classes because as a DM I can control them much better than feats or spells (which are somewhat harder to ban with in-game reasons). Hence, even if the biggest creep can perhaps come from "combos", these are usually not bothering me in practice.

Feats, spells and other things bother me more, and I've heard examples that sound to be too good to pass on, such as Divine Metamagic, Sudden Metamagic, or the feat that doubles Wizard known spells. I can't really vote from my safe 3.0 harbour (despite the unpopularity, it has been safe enough for us, but then we don't use all supplements available ), but if we choose one day to try 3.5 again I'd have to be more careful about what to allow.

 

[prosfilaes]

Just the options alone sometimes makes a difference. I don't recall any spells in the Complete Wizard that alone are more powerful than the PHB spells, but used well, a wizard or even a sorcerer with access to the PHB spells and the Complete Wizard spells would be more powerful than one with access to the PHB spells alone.