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<blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 9272021" data-attributes="member: 93670">A cantrip is an upgrade to a PC who lacks them.&nbsp; The upgrade in question is one of having a broader set of action options at their disposal just as armor proficiency grants a broader set of defensive options.Your rogue example is silly because it's an obviously bad cantrip choice for a ranged weapon viable rogue who can simply use a short bow and still enjoy their sneak attack.&nbsp; That rogue gains a distinctly broader set of options when you change the cantrip to something like mage hand, prestigitation, mold earth, guidance &amp;so on.. heck even. Stuff like true strike and blade wars could be a boon depending on the eventual version of the spell we see.&nbsp; The fact that you didn't even consider a cantrip that might somehow synergize with or broaden a rogue's capabilities while talking about a hypothetical rogue taking a cantrip speaks volumes about how little thought went into that entire point.What you are describing is a design problem created by 20145e itself by trying to pretend magic items could be made optional without creating problems by doing little more than declaring it so and shifting a bunch of power onto the base PCs themselves. They could be. There are a lot of ways such a thing could be implemented and have the upgrades focus items gated. Some of them involve the cantrips tier being tied to an item itself just as a flsmetongue is better than a +1 longsword,others involve casters getting class abilities of their own that suitably improve their nonscaling cantrip focus or unlocking the ability to use better more powerful focus items than they were able to use at level one.&nbsp; Others involve shifting list at will power to leveled spells.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="tetrasodium, post: 9272021, member: 93670"] A cantrip is an upgrade to a PC who lacks them. The upgrade in question is one of having a broader set of action options at their disposal just as armor proficiency grants a broader set of defensive options. Your rogue example is silly because it's an obviously bad cantrip choice for a ranged weapon viable rogue who can simply use a short bow and still enjoy their sneak attack. That rogue gains a distinctly broader set of options when you change the cantrip to something like mage hand, prestigitation, mold earth, guidance &so on.. heck even. Stuff like true strike and blade wars could be a boon depending on the eventual version of the spell we see. The fact that you didn't even consider a cantrip that might somehow synergize with or broaden a rogue's capabilities while talking about a hypothetical rogue taking a cantrip speaks volumes about how little thought went into that entire point. What you are describing is a design problem created by 20145e itself by trying to pretend magic items could be made optional without creating problems by doing little more than declaring it so and shifting a bunch of power onto the base PCs themselves. They could be. There are a lot of ways such a thing could be implemented and have the upgrades focus items gated. Some of them involve the cantrips tier being tied to an item itself just as a flsmetongue is better than a +1 longsword,others involve casters getting class abilities of their own that suitably improve their nonscaling cantrip focus or unlocking the ability to use better more powerful focus items than they were able to use at level one. Others involve shifting list at will power to leveled spells. [/QUOTE]

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