Polymorph Errata

[da chicken]

Does anyone here disagree with the changes made to the polymorph spell? Personally, I think they made it rather useless...

No. In fact, polymorph other is still broken.

Look, you hit level 7, and the Wizard learns polymorph other. So the Wizard uses polymorph other: stone giant. Now every member in the party has Str 27, Dex 15, Con 19, +11 natural armor, 10 foot natural reach, 40 ft base move and (probably) +8 racial hide in rocky terrain. And, gee, the spell even "transforms [any equipment] to match the new form!" What do you lose? -1 to hit and AC for being Large, and supernatural abilities you used to have (a fat lot of those there are ).

To add insult to injury, the whole bit in the PH/SRD about being disoriented ("Will save (DC 19) or suffer a -2 penalty on all attack rolls, saves, skill checks, and ability checks") was left out of the new errata. I believe this is a mistake, but I'm not certain. Still, polymorph other: stone giant gives you a +8 Str mod, more than making up for a -2 circumstance penalty.

There is absolutely no reason not to do this as long as you are not going to associate with NPCs and you don't have low ceilings to contend with. Of course, polymorph other: green hag makes you medium sized with 19 Str, 12 Dex & Con, and +11 natural armor, and a single dispel magic from the party Wizard is enough to remove all the polymorphs... no harm done at all.

It's a wonder we don't see armies of 1st level warriors polymorphed into stone giants. Sure, they still only have ~8 hp, but they're suddenly wearing natural full plate with large shield. Now give them large wooden shields, hide armor, and morningstars, and they've got AC 27, and deal 2d6+8 per hit (or 2d6+6). That makes a wand of polymorph other the ultimate force multiplier.

Even discounting that, polymorph other: carp is a death sentence, making the spell also function as a save-or-die spell.

 

[Guy Fullerton]

Look, you hit level 7, and the Wizard learns polymorph other. So the Wizard uses polymorph other: stone giant.

Not possible. (Probably.) The form can have no more hit dice than the greater of the caster's and subject's hit dice. Stone Giants have 14 hit dice.

Even discounting that, polymorph other: carp is a death sentence, making the spell also function as a save-or-die spell.

Why? Fish don't die the instant they are taken out of water. Though there is no explicit rule to handle such situations, I see no reason why the carp wouldn't be able to "hold its breath" just like an air-breather who is suddenly submerged.

(I've seen small fish survive for quite some time out of water.)

 

[da chicken]

Not possible. (Probably.) The form can have no more hit dice than the greater of the caster's and subject's hit dice. Stone Giants have 14 hit dice.

You're right about the HD limit (it's caster limited, not subject limited). I'd forgotten they added that, too. Still, you don't want to have this argument. It is too easy for me to win:

Troll
Hit Dice: 6d8+36
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 14, Con 23
Size: Large
Reach: 10 ft
AC: +7 natural
Darkvision, 60'
3 natural attacks

Why? Fish don't die the instant they are taken out of water.

I said death sentence, not instant death.

Though there is no explicit rule to handle such situations, I see no reason why the carp wouldn't be able to "hold its breath" just like an air-breather who is suddenly submerged.

(I've seen small fish survive for quite some time out of water.)

Yes, there are rules for suffocation. You use the drowning rules. So, sure. Hold your breath. You can do that Con x2 rounds no problem. If you're lucky, somebody will throw you into some water. Of course, a carp probably hasn't got a very high Con.... I'd say 8, or 10 if you're lucky.

And if you don find water when your time is up, you start to suffocate. You have to make progressively more difficult Con checks, starting at DC 10 and increasing by 1 each round. It is, for all intents and purposes, mathematically impossible to survive 10 rounds of Con checks with a normal (18 or less) Con score. There is a 0.11% chance for a Con 18 character in the first 10 rounds to not fail a check. Yes, that's eleven hundredths of a percent. When you fail one check, you fall unconcious and go to 0 hp. Gee, guess what? Now you're taking zero (this is the part where a human would start to aspirate water). Next round, -1 and dying. Next round death.

It doesn't really matter what I turn you into. A snail. A turtle. A jellyfish. A shark. A manta. The last three are probably best, as the form is big and heavy (well, not the jellyfish), and there probably isn't enough ocean water nearby.

 

[SimonMoon5]

Has anyone done a thorough check to see if these really are the same?
I think they are, but I haven't checked.

I did check once. They are not exactly the same.

The biggest difference (iirc) is that the Dragon version of polymorph says that you must be a member of a restricted race (outsider, undead, construct, etc) in order to become a member of that race, whereas the T&B version merely says that you must be a member of any one of the restricted races if you wish to become a member of any other (or the same) restricted race.


In other words, in the Dragon version, a vampire (undead) wizard could not polymorph self into a marilith (outsider). In the T&B version, he could.

 

[Guy Fullerton]

You're right about the HD limit (it's caster limited, not subject limited).

Just to clarify, it is limited by the higher of caster and subject. From Tome and Blood:

"The new form ... can have no more Hit Dice than you have, or that the subject has (whichever is greater), and in any case the assumed form cannot have more than 15 Hit Dice."

Still, you don't want to have this argument. It is too easy for me to win:

I wasn't having that argument. I was only pointing out an inaccuracy in your post. (The players in my group regularly polymorph into Trolls and Annises because of the obvious benefits.)

I said death sentence, not instant death.

Point taken. I guess I was responding more to the fact that you called it a "save-or-die spell." I disagree that it's a save-or-die spell, since (to me) that term means you are dead the instant you fail your save, which simply isn't true with respect to Polymorph Other.

PO is particularly deadly to monsters/NPCs, since they often face the party alone. PO is far less deadly to PCs, since (after they defeat the foe) they usually have lots of ways to fix the polymorphed PC before Con rounds are up.

Of course, a carp probably hasn't got a very high Con.... I'd say 8, or 10

To pick nits: 8 is too low, IMO. 10 would be fine. (There's not a single Animal in the MM with less than 10 Con. Animals have average to good Con scores as a general rule.)

 

[nharwell]

psionics hb errata

FYI: The most current revision to polymorph is in the Psionics Handbook Errata at http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/er/er20010819a

 

[gordonknox]

Re: psionics hb errata

FYI: The most current revision to polymorph is in the Psionics Handbook Errata at http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/er/er20010819a

Got it!

gk

 

[Voadam]

I think elves are the only creatures in the mm with a con of less than 10.

I haven't checked in a while. Have they not updated the errata to the PH with this? It would seem to be the place to put it.

I got the 1st printing of the PH so I know there are a bunch of errors in my copy. Anybody know if new versions of the PH have a corrected polymorph.

 

[da chicken]

From Tome and Blood:

"The new form ... can have no more Hit Dice than you have, or that the subject has (whichever is greater), and in any case the assumed form cannot have more than 15 Hit Dice."

Emphasis mine.

A horse (3-4 HD) is always limited by caster level. A fire giant (15 HD) never is.

Point taken. I guess I was responding more to the fact that you called it a "save-or-die spell." I disagree that it's a save-or-die spell, since (to me) that term means you are dead the instant you fail your save, which simply isn't true with respect to Polymorph Other.

PO is particularly deadly to monsters/NPCs, since they often face the party alone. PO is far less deadly to PCs, since (after they defeat the foe) they usually have lots of ways to fix the polymorphed PC before Con rounds are up.

A fair enough assertion. Although I fail to see how you're going to find enough salt water for a shark or manta ray to survive in.

To pick nits: 8 is too low, IMO. 10 would be fine.

I agree, 10 is probably more reasonable. Very small creatures tend to get fractional hit dice rather than low Con. Keeps them from being too vulnerable to poisons.

 

[Guy Fullerton]

Emphasis mine.

A horse (3-4 HD) is always limited by caster level. A fire giant (15 HD) never is.

Huh? I think you are fundamentally misinterpreting that passage from Tome and Blood. (Either that or we're both agreeing with one another while misunderstanding one another.)

"The new form ... can have no more Hit Dice than you have, or that the subject has (whichever is greater), and in any case the assumed form cannot have more than 15 Hit Dice."

If the caster has 7 Hit Dice and the subject (the creature being polymorphed) has 10 Hit Dice, then the subject can only be turned into creatures that have 10 Hit Dice or less. In this case, the subject could not be polymorphed into a fire giant because the fire giant form has 15 Hit Dice, which is greater than the limit imposed by that caster/subject combination.

If, however, either the caster or the subject had 15 Hit Dice, then the subject could be polymorphed into a fire giant.

A fair enough assertion. Although I fail to see how you're going to find enough salt water for a shark or manta ray to survive in.

It's not just about finding enough salt water. It's about using other techniques to "fix" the polymorphed PC, either temporarily or permanently: Dispel Magic, potions of Alter Self, another Polymorph Other spell, etc.