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<blockquote data-quote="iserith" data-source="post: 7568385" data-attributes="member: 97077">Yes, and having once been of the same mindset of the people with whom we're debating, I understand the thinking and can see where the flaws are. The problem so far as I can tell is that many a group's culture can be based on this thinking such that seeing the flaws is problematic. It's easier to ignore the flaws and contradictions than to consider whether a longstanding way of doing things might have been a waste of time and energy.You bring up another good point: What is more &quot;immersive&quot; - focusing solely on what's going on in the fiction or focusing on what a player and/or character knows to justify the action declaration? Or, as I often see in such groups, having a little side discussion about who knows what, sometimes relying on rolls to resolve that before any actions are declared? &quot;Does my fighter know how the polymorph spell works? Would he remember that when turned into a 1-Int toad?&quot; It's like an approval process so the player can be cleared of any suspicion of &quot;metagaming&quot; and proceed to the action declaration. It's not clear to me how that helps with &quot;immersion&quot; either.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="iserith, post: 7568385, member: 97077"] Yes, and having once been of the same mindset of the people with whom we're debating, I understand the thinking and can see where the flaws are. The problem so far as I can tell is that many a group's culture can be based on this thinking such that seeing the flaws is problematic. It's easier to ignore the flaws and contradictions than to consider whether a longstanding way of doing things might have been a waste of time and energy. You bring up another good point: What is more "immersive" - focusing solely on what's going on in the fiction or focusing on what a player and/or character knows to justify the action declaration? Or, as I often see in such groups, having a little side discussion about who knows what, sometimes relying on rolls to resolve that before any actions are declared? "Does my fighter know how the [I]polymorph[/I] spell works? Would he remember that when turned into a 1-Int toad?" It's like an approval process so the player can be cleared of any suspicion of "metagaming" and proceed to the action declaration. It's not clear to me how that helps with "immersion" either. [/QUOTE]

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