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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 7569176" data-attributes="member: 22779">See, you keep arguing that the frog is &quot;startled&quot;.&nbsp; Why?&nbsp; Do you normally have PC's be &quot;startled&quot; into committing suicide?&nbsp; Outside of magical fear effects, have your players ever played out jumping into the path of danger accidentally (while in full knowledge of the consequences)?&nbsp; IOW, would your players EVER suicide the frog if it didn't break the spell?Now, the knowledge argument I might buy.&nbsp; But, IIRC, the original description is from the Ravenloft module, so, the PC's are about 5th or 6th level.&nbsp; Not at a level where anyone in the group could cast the spell.&nbsp; And, it's not like Polymorph is that low of a level.&nbsp; That's a grey area where honestly, I could go either way.But, to simply claim, &quot;Oh, well, I'm a frog now.&nbsp; Ok, well I guess I'm startled by battle and accidentally jump under the bard's boot so he squishes me.&quot; as anything other than pure meta gaming is a bad joke.&nbsp; Look, again, I'm the last person usually to police player actions, but, holy crap, this is beyond the pale.&nbsp; This isn't role playing at all.&nbsp; You can try to justify it all you like, but, everyone at the table knows exactly what you're doing.&nbsp; For me, it's a bridge too far.&nbsp; This is a player acting in bad faith.Again, am I a bad DM for instantly killing the PC?&nbsp; Maybe my hag's polymorph isn't the spell but, rather an effect that is particular to hags?&nbsp; After all, mind flayers can use Plane Shift offensively, forcing a saving throw or be banished to another plane.&nbsp; Why can't my hag's polymorph be different?Or would that be the DM acting in bad faith?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 7569176, member: 22779"] See, you keep arguing that the frog is "startled". Why? Do you normally have PC's be "startled" into committing suicide? Outside of magical fear effects, have your players ever played out jumping into the path of danger accidentally (while in full knowledge of the consequences)? IOW, would your players EVER suicide the frog if it didn't break the spell? Now, the knowledge argument I might buy. But, IIRC, the original description is from the Ravenloft module, so, the PC's are about 5th or 6th level. Not at a level where anyone in the group could cast the spell. And, it's not like Polymorph is that low of a level. That's a grey area where honestly, I could go either way. But, to simply claim, "Oh, well, I'm a frog now. Ok, well I guess I'm [i]startled by battle[/i] and [i]accidentally[/i] jump under the bard's boot so he squishes me." as anything other than pure meta gaming is a bad joke. Look, again, I'm the last person usually to police player actions, but, holy crap, this is beyond the pale. This isn't role playing at all. You can try to justify it all you like, but, everyone at the table knows exactly what you're doing. For me, it's a bridge too far. This is a player acting in bad faith. Again, am I a bad DM for instantly killing the PC? Maybe my hag's polymorph isn't the spell but, rather an effect that is particular to hags? After all, mind flayers can use Plane Shift offensively, forcing a saving throw or be banished to another plane. Why can't my hag's polymorph be different? Or would that be the DM acting in bad faith? [/QUOTE]

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