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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Salthorae" data-source="post: 7570357" data-attributes="member: 1095">Every chosen action in an RPG is to achieve a game effect. You have said repeatedly that suiciding your frog-PC is a "reasonable" and "valid" action. I contend that it is not without in game justification for the action. Therefore it matters why the player is choosing that action at my table. I'm fine with it, if they have a basis for the action in-game or in-character. Because I know the PC's at my table, I know already for which one's that action might be reasonable, so when I ask for an Arcana check, the DC is set accordingly.  I continue to maintain that self-suicide is not a reasonable action without an in-game basis, regardless of how you try to achieve the effect, because the out of character rationale is to end the effect of polymorph. Knowledge of the spell IS required for a PC to take an action that would end the effect of a spell in my games though.It's not an accident if you purposefully do it and I'm not sure how or why you continue to conflate them. The toad can't do anything on it's own to die other than jumping into an environmental hazard. That wouldn't be accidental unless as the DM, you said the player had to roll a d12 to determine which "random" direction their frog was trying to go. Otherwise it's purposeful and not accidental. 5e based reference, but there are more from 3.5 forward that deal with the same information: <a href="http://keith-baker.com/common-magic/" target="_blank">http://keith-baker.com/common-magic/</a>Two 3.5 based articles that deal with the rarity of PC classes and levels which then also speaks to the rarity of higher level magics/abilities: <a href="http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebug/20041227a" target="_blank">http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebug/20041227a</a><a href="http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040712a" target="_blank">http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040712a</a>Obviously not and now you're nitpicking. When I said "established game worlds" I was referring to "official TSR/WotC published game worlds that I have read, or seen, or played in". I am in no way able to speak to people's homebrewed worlds. I'm sure someone or many someone's out there have worlds where janitors have access to 5th level magic on a regular basis. Still, that would be an in-game justification for the character knowing how to end the polymorph effect. I'd still require an Arcana check to see if they had experience with it to act accordingly, EVEN in that kind of homebrew world. But the DC would be lower in that kind of a world.</blockquote>

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