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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cheiromancer" data-source="post: 3191918" data-attributes="member: 141">Re: Baleful PolymorphIf permanent is +20, close is +6, and the kernel value of this spell is 6 + (2 x CR), then the kernel analysis of baleful polymorph is 20 + 6 + 6 = 32 = a 5th level spell.  Just as it should be. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />It could also be made pernicious (which I am pricing at about +30); if you add (D) to it it should be a USP 28.However this is a very different application of the seed.  It depends on access to the pernicious factor (+30) and the permanent factor (+20), neither of which can be assumed.  It also assumes that the CR can be scaled back to 0 in order to provide 40SP with which to pay for the factors.  Which I don't think is a good idea; it translates to +20 DC when polymorphing your enemies into toads.  Sure it's dispellable and sure it's only for 200 minutes, but that's way too hard to save against.Now that I think of it, this version allows a +10 DC when used offensively, if the target CR is lowered all the way.  That's still too much.  Maybe the CR shouldn't be lowerable.  Or maybe this should be a spell for willing subjects only.Actually, I think that should be the case; [polymorph] is for willing subjects only.  At least without a feat like the following:[sblock=Old version and discussion] Lore of Circe [Epic] Prerequisites: Brew Potion, Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge Nature 13 ranks, access to [polymorph] Benefit: You may pay +20 SP to affect unwilling creatures with spells based on the [polymorph] seed. These spells are permanent and dismissible. You may also apply the pernicious factor at a reduced cost of only +10 SP.  Finally, your [polymorph] spells gain a +5 bonus to the Save DC and caster level when cast against someone who, in the hour prior to casting, ate food you helped prepare. Targets are allowed a Fortitude save to negate the effect of a [polymorph] spell.Should this have more difficult prerequisites?  Circe was an extremely capable sorceress, but I could see her doing this kind of thing since she could first cast baleful polymorph; I'd like it to be available as soon as she can cast epic spells.Should there be a different seed for offensive polymorphs, or would Lore of Circe be sufficient?[edit] Fixed Lore of Circe so the buyback of CR factors can't be used to Heighten it; +20 SP of permanency has to be purchased instead.  I'm effectively giving the caster full-back (instead of only half the normal rate) if they spend it on pernicious and permanent.  I think this will be OK. [/edit]An offensive polymorph seed [cacomorph?] could also have to do with transforming people into CR 0 objects (including stone- a possible overlap with [transmute]).  It could include the permanent and pernicious factor by default, but have room for factors to be spent on things like area effects and increased CR.  Up to a maximum of the target's original CR, or 2/3 of their original CR, or something like that.  It is not really a buff spell, but perhaps you could turn soldiers into animals so they could slip undetected across a border.  Or into rocks, to better survive a cloud of poisonous gas.  Maybe permanent and pernicious could be factors that the pool draws from.  All kinds of things could be there, but not Heighten factors.I'm thinking that the Permanent factor (+20) shouldn't be a standard factor.  It could be incorporated into various seeds (especially esoteric ones), and be made available by specialist feats for use in other seeds.  I think the same should hold true for pernicious (except for [afflict]).[/sblock]Curses, geasa, and being turned into animals are a staple of folklore and mythology.  I'd really like it if the seeds and feats that unlocked these capacities were attractive and accessible.  This might be one of those sidebars for a particular style of play.[edit]Version 1.1 of Lore of Circe Lore of Circe [Epic] Prerequisites: Brew Potion, Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge Nature 13 ranks, access to [polymorph] Benefit: Pay 20 SP to enhance a [polymorph] spell with Lore of Circe. A spell enhanced in this way has a permanent duration and can affect unwilling targets (Fortitude negates).  You may dismiss the effect from any number of targets within range as a standard action.  The spell gains a +5 bonus to its Save DC and caster level when cast against someone who, in the hour prior to casting, ate food you helped prepare. You may pay an additional 20 SP to make the spell pernicious. Access to the permanency factor is worth something, even if you have to pay for it.  So is making the spell affect unwilling targets. Adding dismissibility is a small perq. The save DC increase is worth +10; caster level is worth +5 vs dispels and spell resistance, too. There is a 10 SP savings on the pernicious factor. And access to it is worth something too. And the feat is fairly easy to get into, though the Brew Potion feat might be begrudged by some.</blockquote>

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