Possible Multiclassing Fix

[Viktyr Gehrig]

A lot of thought has gone into the issue of multiclassing in 3e. There seems to be two kinds of basic multiclassing in 3e: one main class with one or more dips to get good early-level abilities from other classes, and staying more or less even in two base classes and sucking until you qualify for a prestige class designed to fix the fact that multiclass sucks.

I heard about this on the Paizo boards and don't take credit for it. (I'd credit the poster if I could remember his name.) I've taken it a step or two farther, though.

Cross-Training
Prerequisites: 2nd level in at least two different base classes.
Benefit: Choose two base classes in which you have at least 2 levels. For the purposes of class features, spells per day, and spells known in each class, half of your class level in the other class stacks. For the purposes of caster level and other class abilities which are calculated based on class level, your full level in both classes stack.
In addition, you may multiclass freely between these classes, and they count as a single class for the purpose of determining your multiclass XP penalty.
Special: This feat cannot be selected for prestige classes and prestige class levels never stack for the purposes of this feat.

So, for your classic exaxmple, a Cleric 3/Wizard 4 (same level as a Mystic Theurge 1) casts spells as a 5th level Cleric and a 5th level Wizard, with a caster level of 7 in both classes. A Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 1 would be casting as a Cleric 4/Wizard 4.

Rogue 2/Wizard X would make a competent Arcane Trickster, though the lack of skill points would be painful after a while.

Improved Cross-Training
Prerequisites: Cross-Training, 4th level in at least 3 base classes.
Benefit: Take the two base classes you selected with Cross-Training and choose a third base class in which you have attained at least 4th level. All three classes now stack when determining class-level based abilities, and three quarters of your levels in your other selected classes now stack when determining your class features, spells per day, and spells known.
In addition, you may multiclass freely between these classes, and they count as a single class for the purpose of determining your multiclass XP penalty.
Special: This feat cannot be selected for prestige classes and prestige class levels never stack for the purposes of this feat.

This allows you access to your Fighter/Mage/Thief, Cleric/Fighter/Magic-User and 1e Bard. At 4/4/4, you have the class features and spellcasting of 10th level characters with the standard BAB, HP, Saving Throws, and Skill Points.

While using these feats, you should probably disallow any of the "multiclass patch" prestige classes.

Also, if you're concerned about Rogue 2/Ranger X or Paladin 4/Favored Soul 4/Cleric X, you could impose the additional limitation that the benefits of the feat only apply as long as all involved classes are within one level of each other.

 

[Hawken]

Here's a couple of points:

According to your first feat, characters must be at least 2nd level in 2 classes. However, after 4 total levels, characters don't get another feat until 6th level. So, characters would have 3 levels in each or 4/2. If you want the requirement as a minimum, then the character should be able to get the feat as soon as they hit the minimum (2 levels in 2 classes). So, why not change it to 2 levels in 1 class, and 1 level in a second. That way, they can get this feat at 3rd level and take advantage of it right away.

I like that you count both classes as basically the same class for purpose of XP penalty and allow multiclassing between the selected classes. This makes it much more sensible for certain combinations like Paladin/Fighter.

Class abilities increasing doesn't really jive. How is a wizard becoming a better spellcaster by taking levels in Rogue, Cleric or Fighter? How does a paladin's Lay on Hands increase in effectiveness if he trains as a Fighter?

As an alternative to class features, I would suggest something like allowing the player to use the better factors of the two selected classes for intrinsic factors such as HD, BAB, Saves, Skill points. This would be similar to the gestalt rules.

Example: Fighter 3/Rogue 3. The player would take the better of the HD (D10/D6), the better skill points (8/level instead of 2), Fighter BAB instead of Rogue. Class specific abilities (bonus feats, sneak attack, etc.) would remain tied to the actual level of the separate classes.

I don't know why prestige classes are exempt from this. I can't think of any logical reason why.

 

[Humanaut]

For my next campaign I'm going to try the folllowing. As an FYI, we normally never continue past 12th level, 15th being the high end before we retire PCs and start over...

Multiclassing:
Pick two classes when 1st level, you get the best features of each class (BAB, HD, good saves of each class, etc). Double the number of XP needed to get to each level.

Boom, done. Additionally, we'll be using the Pathfinder "slow" XP chart. No PrC either.

Comparing the needed XP for a single class and multiclass, you do loose HD compared to single classed PCs, but at the gain of full use of abilites of the second class. Maybe think of it as a LA. Since we quit at around level 12-15, the multiclass PC will not fall THAT far behind HD-wise. IMHO. This loss of levels/HD/HP is not that far off from 1e or 2e I think.

Looks to me then a single classed PC, say, 8th level compared to a PC with two classes is 4/4 RAW(and 8HD), this "new" method would get you about 6/6 level in abilities (but only 6 HD)...

Worth a try, and if it bites wind, we'll drop it. :^)

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

So, why not change it to 2 levels in 1 class, and 1 level in a second. That way, they can get this feat at 3rd level and take advantage of it right away.

That's a good point. And, setting up for the second feat, you might want to allow a 1/1/1 to take the first feat at 3rd. So yeah, change the prerequisites to "levels in at least 2 base classes."

Class abilities increasing doesn't really jive. How is a wizard becoming a better spellcaster by taking levels in Rogue, Cleric or Fighter? How does a paladin's Lay on Hands increase in effectiveness if he trains as a Fighter?

The idea is that your Paladin training continues even while you're taking levels in Fighter-- just less effectively. Part of the idea is that lower level abilities are easier to learn than higher level abilities, so it's easier for you to keep up in the lower level abilities of multiple classes.

As an alternative to class features, I would suggest something like allowing the player to use the better factors of the two selected classes for intrinsic factors such as HD, BAB, Saves, Skill points. This would be similar to the gestalt rules.

Those things are almost entirely meaningless to most classes, and entirely meaningless to spellcasters. Doesn't really fix the problem at all.

I don't know why prestige classes are exempt from this. I can't think of any logical reason why.

There's two reasons.

The functional reason is that the purpose of these feats is to encourage the use of the base classes and multiclassing within them without resorting to PrCs-- and to encourage base classes in general.

The second is a balance problem. One feat turns any 1/2 spellcaster progression class into a full progression class. In general, Prestige Class class features are better than base class features-- even high level base class features.

And then there's the abominations. Wizard 5/Mindbender 4/Ur-Priest 4. No lost spellcaster levels for Mindbender, one lost level for Ur-Priest-- run it out to Wizard 12 and you cast spells like a Wizard 19/Ur-Priest 12. In addition to having the full run of Mindbender and Ur-Priest class abilities.

Bard 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 4/Sublime Chord 4. That's ninth level spells at 14th level, and regardless of whether you run Bard X or keep your levels even after that point, you're a superior caster than a dedicated Sorcerer. Even assuming that you can't get multiple caster levels in a single level.

Pretty much any combination of a base class and a prestige class geared toward that class is a nightmare. There's also the problem of using two or three Prestige Classes together. Sorcerer 5/Dragonheart Mage 2/Dragon Disciple 2 takes Cross Training at 9. Goes DHM 5/DD4 and picks up four levels of Dragon Devotee to pick up Improved Cross Training at 18.

And, of course... to put it all together, Bard 5/Mindbender 1. Improved Cross Training in Lyric Thaumaturge, Sublime Chord and Ur-Priest.

Even something as simple as Swashbuckler/Rogue/Duelist comes out ugly using this method.

 

[Voadam]

Martial classes usually gain little difference between levels (fighters gain the same bonus feat feature while rogues gain the same +1d6 sneak attack every odd level) and usually multiclass well.

If I'm a fighter 18/Rogue 2 with your multiclass feat do I get level 11 rogue class abilities (+6d6 sneak attack)? Compared to the level 20 fighter who has +1 BAB, +6 hp, and 1 bonus fighter feat, +1 fort but loses out on +4 ref save, lots of skill points, evasion, uncanny dodge, etc.

This seems a huge incentive for a martial class character to multiclass this specific way and leave their single classed compatriots in the dust

 

[Hawken]

So yeah, change the prerequisites to "levels in at least 2 base classes."

That's what you've already got listed.

The idea is that your Paladin training continues even while you're taking levels in Fighter-- just less effectively. Part of the idea is that lower level abilities are easier to learn than higher level abilities, so it's easier for you to keep up in the lower level abilities of multiple classes.

Yeah, but that idea is flawed. Your paladin abilities don't and shouldn't continue to improve when you're not a paladin. Maintain, sure. Which means they stay where you leave them. But improve when you're doing nothing to improve them? No way.

And when it comes to spellcasting, that idea is just nonsense. Saying a wizard gets better at casting spells when he decides to become a monk or rogue is like saying a doctor that decides to take up law or become an MMA fighter is going to still get better at medicine. No, he won't. He might--and I mean it loosely--be able to maintain his medical skills, but they sure as hell won't be improving because the time he would have spent improving them (gaining a level) is now spent doing something else completely unrelated.

Those things are almost entirely meaningless to most classes, and entirely meaningless to spellcasters. Doesn't really fix the problem at all.

So, a rogue/wizard being able to take rogue BAB, skills and HD is meaningless?

Your solutions aren't a fix to multiclassing at all. You're just trying to come up with a way to multiclass a spellcaster and allow them to continue improving their spellcasting level while taking levels in other classes. Why not just play using the gestalt rules then? From your comments here, it seems like that is really what you're wanting to do anyway.

The thing is, your solution isn't a solution. It is designed primarily for improving spellcasting, under the thinly veiled guise of allowing it to operate for any class abilities. And that's not the problem with multiclassing. Multiclassing allows for variety at the expense of expertise. You're wanting the variety AND expertise all in one package.

You're not even concerned about caster level (the Practiced Spellcaster feat, neatly takes care of that concern) either. You just want more spells and higher level spells for "free".

If you took your two feats and made a Bard 8/Wizard 8/Fighter 4, you would have a character that could cast spells as a 17th level Bard (8 + 6 from wizard + 3 from fighter), cast spells as a 17th level Wizard (8 + 6 from bard + 3 from fighter), and have all the bonus feats of a 16th level Fighter (4 + 6 from Bard + 6 from Wizard). --And I use these levels instead of 7/7/6 because 8/8/4 divides evenly.

There are all kinds of broken things you could do. A Fighter 8/Monk 8/Rogue 4 would be a devastating opponent. Cleric 8/Druid 8/Ranger 4 would be a beast, and a Wizard 8/Sorcerer 8/Bard 4 would never run out of arcane spells!

Take your idea back to the drawing board. Or at least be honest about what you're wanting to do. Your solution doesn't fix multiclassing, it would be enough to make DMs BAN multiclassing.

 

[Ilja]

I agree with the notion that this is far too powerful. You shouldn't be able to get better then a single-classed character at what they do when you multiclass.

I think that the problem first of all needs to be analyzed. The problem is in my opinion that some classes are only used in multiclassed builds (think fighter) and some are nearly worthless to multiclass, unless sometimes only dipping (think monk and full casters). While this can be explained with wizardry requireing full concentration over the years, it's a quite boring way of doing it.

I think only some of the base classes has problems with multiclassing:
Fighter (and Paladin to my experience): Nearly only used for multiclassing or dipping.
Full casters and monk: Never multiclasses unless with PRC.
This is due to fighters gaining power linear while casters gaining power exponentially. Most classes are somewhere in between, having some linear features but getting extra nice stuff eventually.

The problem with fighters is easily solved by using the PF favored class variant - a race's favored class gives +1 hp or +1 skill point at every level.
The problem with the others really only need to be addressed as problems of those classes. The monk is generally underpowered in every way, so there's some room for making it more powerful. The full casters are generally considered the universally best classes (except possibly from the sorcerer), so there you have to be much more discrete in the changes.

For the monk, I would propose a feat something like this:

Broad Training
Prerequisites: Monk level 5, Wis 13+
Benefit: You may add half of all levels in other base classes to your Monk level to determine monk class features and unarmed damage. You may add no more levels through this than your monk level.

This would limit it a bit so you don't see Fighter 15/Monk 1 that has the abilities of an 8th-level monk, but you can still multiclass as long as you more than dip into the class.

For spellcasters I'm not really sure what to do, since they've got enough power instead. Maybe you could change Practiced Spellcaster to instead let you cast spells as though you were three levels higher, up to your character level. Extra spells and so on. And of course only let a character take it once. Having a Wizard 5/Rogue 5 might suck right now except for RP reasons, but if that 10th level character could cast 4th-level spells it might be decent.

Or, if you go with slower caster progression as some do here due to casters being to powerful, it might solve itself.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I agree with the notion that this is far too powerful. You shouldn't be able to get better then a single-classed character at what they do when you multiclass.

Yes, I see from some of the examples that it can become extremely problematic, especially with the use of the three-class feat. That one would definitely have to be scrapped.

What do you think specifically of the first feat, with the condition that classes must remain within one level of each other? I don't see quite the same potential for abuse there, at least as far as spellcasters goes-- it's only slightly better than a multige with Practiced Spellcaster-- but it looks like it could still present difficulties with martial classes. And while non-spellcasters are notoriously weak, I agree that multi-classed characters shouldn't be superior to single-classed. Despite Hawken's focus on spellcasters, it seems like this is the real problem with this approach.

 

[Hawken]

My "focus" on spellcasters was because their power increases exponentially with each level of spellcasting they gain--non spellcasting classes gain power in a linear fashion. And it was to highlight exactly how broken your original ideas were.

I don't think, even if you limit the feat to keeping classes within 1 level of each other, that it should work either. When it comes down to it, you're still wanting 1 feat (something gained every 3rd level) to grant all the abilities of a level of a given class. Extra spells and unearned access to 5th+ level spells all for just one feat is broken.

You're still not coming across as wanting to "fix" multiclassing. It still seems like you're just trying to find away to multiclass and get all the abilities of your classes at the same time. The concept for multiclassing is that you sacrifice advancement in one or more classes to learn new skills and abilities in other classes. That's not the "problem" of multiclassing, that's what it does and you're just trying to circumvent that.

If you want a feat that makes a second class also a favored class, or even allows you to take the better of two class' HD, BAB, etc. that wouldn't be unreasonable. But you're asking for everything without giving up anything in return.

 

[Rel]

Or at least be honest about what you're wanting to do.

It's one thing to disagree with another poster's idea. It's another, and quite a bit more insulting, to imply that they are being dishonest. Don't speculate on another poster's motives like this.