Potent Cantrip: To "fix" or not to fix?

ClaytonCross

Kinder reader Inflection wanted
Frostbite is the best, I think. But still it is more limited than I think it should be.

I don't see why, its half a d6 damage and the other effects do not apply so your not getting "disadvantage on the next weapon attack roll" if they save.

"When a creature succeeds on a saving throw against your cantrip, the creature takes half the cantrip’s damage (if any) but suffers no additional effect from the cantrip.

So it needs to be useful by damage on a failed save or its not relevant to the ability.
(Sure if you hit with frostbite its good but that just means you take it as well if you want I am just talking about the ones that make the best use of the ability)

Toll the dead is the highest damage with a range over 10ft

Thunderclap is the largest AoE basically able to hit anyone surrounding you which makes it damage amplifier by up to 8 depending on how surrounded you are. That's the most damage you can get.

Sacred Flame can attack in full cover because you determine if you can attack BEFORE you know if they save or not and damage still has a type so radiant and fire are useful for the creatures that regenerate. There are no flame spells that use a save. They are all "to hit". Using a spell that has a 100% chance of stopping a vampire from regenerating is like doing half damage +10 to it each round.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

jaelis

Oh this is where the title goes?
Because I think frostbite is simply the best cantrip with a save. Forcing disadvantage is IMO worth more than the additional damage from toll (plus too many creatures are immune/resistant to necro damage).

Thunderclap is good for a swordmage or EK who likes to get in the middle of enemies. I don't think an evoker should be aiming for that.

Sacred flame is not worth multiclassing or taking a feat for. (Also, it doesn't let you attack creatures with total cover, it just denies the save bonus from half or 3/4 cover.)

---
I'll admit that part of the appeal of frostbite is that it is actually evocation. I don't really get giving evokers benefits for necromancy or conjuration spells.
 
Last edited:

Dausuul

Legend
Because I think frostbite is simply the best cantrip with a save. Forcing disadvantage is IMO worth more than the additional damage from toll (plus too many creatures are immune/resistant to necro damage).
Cold resistance/immunity is about two and a half times more common than necrotic resistance/immunity.

As for forcing disadvantage versus raw damage output... well, depends on what you're fighting. Against a group of foes, I'd prefer toll the dead to whittle down their numbers faster; giving disadvantage to a single mook doesn't have that big an impact. Against 1-2 powerful foes, frostbite is far superior.
 


Cold resistance/immunity is about two and a half times more common than necrotic resistance/immunity.

Really. Huh.
That's probably calculated by pure "number of monsters with X resistance/immunity in the MM and similar works" rather than the chances of running into a monster with it.
Unless you're adventuring in an arctic or similar region, you'll probably find more of the things you fight being resistant/immune to necrotic damage than cold simply because its a common feature of undead, and undead are a very common foe in many adventures.
 

jaelis

Oh this is where the title goes?
Yes, it looks like the main contributors are demons/devils vs undead. Historically I'd say I've run into or used a lot more undead then demons/devils, is probably why I have that impression.
 

Dausuul

Legend
That's probably calculated by pure "number of monsters with X resistance/immunity in the MM and similar works" rather than the chances of running into a monster with it.
If you can come up with a reasonable way of estimating "chances of running into a monster with it," I'll happily apply that to my calculations.

Unless you're adventuring in an arctic or similar region, you'll probably find more of the things you fight being resistant/immune to necrotic damage than cold simply because its a common feature of undead, and undead are a very common foe in many adventures.
Cold resistance is also a common feature of undead. Among undead, it's the third most-resisted damage type (poison is first, necrotic is second). So even if you're fighting a lot of undead, switching to cold over necrotic is not a huge improvement.

And if you're playing, say, "Out of the Abyss," depending on cold damage is going to make you very very sad. Every single demon is cold resistant. So is every single devil. And it pops up on an assortment of other monsters, too. Cold resistance goes way beyond just arctic monsters.

On the other hand, necrotic resistance/immunity is almost wholly confined to undead. If you're not fighting undead, you don't have to worry about it.
 

jaelis

Oh this is where the title goes?
Well, at any rate you are not limited to a single cantrip. Sensibly, an evoker should probably take both frostbite and toll the dead.

But I still don't like potent cantrip!
 

ClaytonCross

Kinder reader Inflection wanted
Because I think frostbite is simply the best cantrip with a save. Forcing disadvantage is IMO worth more than the additional damage from toll (plus too many creatures are immune/resistant to necro damage).

Thunderclap is good for a swordmage or EK who likes to get in the middle of enemies. I don't think an evoker should be aiming for that.

Sacred flame is not worth multiclassing or taking a feat for. (Also, it doesn't let you attack creatures with total cover, it just denies the save bonus from half or 3/4 cover.)

---
I'll admit that part of the appeal of frostbite is that it is actually evocation. I don't really get giving evokers benefits for necromancy or conjuration spells.

Thunderclap and Sacred Fame are also evocation and disadvantage from frostbit is lost per the ability we are talking about so its irrelevant to the topic unless you need 1/2 cold damage for some reason (you likely don't). If your saying your ignoring the ability and taking your favorite cantrip... sure take it too, its not like you only get one cantrip so taking thunderclap and sacred flame gives you the option when its relevant and will be far more effective at that time. That's the point of taking multiple combat can trips. Cold damage has a lot of immunity and resistance too but I will agree that GMs tend to lean on undead as unsympathetic evil which tends to make necrotic resistance more common. Truth be told Toll the dead is the most damaging single target spell with a range over 10ft and poison spray is not only shorter range but poison resistance and immunity is actually more common than necrotic. If your stuck on the secondary effect of frostbite that's fine...But that's also a bit off topic because your taking with disregard to the ability being discussed instead of including it. (Unless your agreement it that Potent Cantrip sucks because its not useful with "the best" evocation spell that qualifies.)

I would argue that if you want a single target EVOCATION spell that it not as likely to be resisted and is good with Potent Cantrip... Lighting Lure d8 with 15ft range is actually better since it does half damage on scaling d8 lighting damage and pulling an enemy 10ft toward you from 15ft away then moving 30ft away means you can free an ally to move out of combat range and move out of combat range yourself which so a melee opponent has zero chance of hitting either of you. It also uses strength save instead of constitution save which will make it far more effective because dex fighters/rogues are likely to dump strength but NO ONE wants to dump constitution so potent can trip is going to trigger less but be more effective when it does. (I sill prefer Toll the dead to stand further back and do damage but if you want evocation...)

There is no need to mulit-class to take Sacred Flame and taking the feat Magic initiate (Cleric) and you don't just get sacred flame. I would likely take guidance and healing word as my 1st level spell. Healing word is also (evocation) and its a good once a day save a party member a wizard might normally not have and for story I would be a minor devotee of Ioun who favors knowledge and would support wizards who seek knowledge for the aid of others.

Also, Jeremy Crawford comments Sacred Flame here http://media.wizards.com/2017/podcasts/dnd/DnDPodcast_01_19_2017.mp3 @ 36:20 after explaining line of sight and invisible wall interactions he specifically states that Scared Flame can attack players in full cover HOWEVER you have to see them so you can hit a target behind wall of force, windows / invisible creatures, or any other barrier that would stop spells traveling from the caster to a target but you can see through. If there is a little crack and you see the target but its still considered enough to be considered in full cover you CAN target it and hit it with sacred flame without any penalty where no other spell can.
 

Dausuul

Legend
Also, Jeremy Crawford comments Sacred Flame here http://media.wizards.com/2017/podcasts/dnd/DnDPodcast_01_19_2017.mp3 @ 36:20 after explaining line of sight and invisible wall interactions he specifically states that Scared Flame can attack players in full cover HOWEVER you have to see them so you can hit a target behind wall of force, windows / invisible creatures, or any other barrier that would stop spells traveling from the caster to a target but you can see through. If there is a little crack and you see the target but its still considered enough to be considered in full cover you CAN target it and hit it with sacred flame without any penalty where no other spell can.
So, apparently, "the target gains no advantage from cover for this saving throw" has been ninja-errataed to "the target gains no advantage from cover at all." Last I checked, you picked your target for a spell before any saves got rolled, and you can't target something behind total cover.

I love the game that Jeremy Crawford helped create, but I wish he'd get someone with a little less creativity and a little more (a lot more) rigor to do Sage Advice.

...Not that that's really relevant to this thread, I suppose.
 

Remove ads

Top