Potion of Reduce -- what's the use?

[Bronn Spellforger]

Hey, my subject rhymes!

Well, my Wizard has been carrying around a potion of reduction we found for quite sometime... I can't seem to find a good use for it. Sure, the spell Reduce can be extremely useful for objects & enemies, but how can we use it in potion form?

Here's what I came up with:

1. Reduce the weight of one character in order to lift him up (e.g., a Levitation spell).
2. Make someone smaller to fit through small openings.

Of course, one you do either of these, they've got a -2 to strength for a while.

But is there any way to use it in combat????

As such, I've given it to the fighter who has a potion of Enlarge. I figure it can counter the potion quicker if we needed to run through a small door before the potion wears off.

Any thoughts?

 

[dcollins]

Mostly, I think of it for fitting through small saces. It is an oddity, however, in that it only takes a human down to 3 ft., where previous editions the analog would take one down to 4 inches (hence, able to get through very small spaces).

I recently considered introducing another pair of new spells which would allow enlarge/reduce effects without the standard limits, and therefore have potions of growth/diminution which resemble to old rules'. Unfortunately, righteous might already does that job, even it doesn't give all the bonuses for size alteration, and yet it's already too-high level to be used in a potion. So, out of luck.

 

[Zhure]

A -2 STR is a relatively ok penalty for a noncombat spell used in combat. It's Fortitude, so Rogues will have a tougher time making it.

Primarily I've seen it used to make teleport and dimension door able to transport more characters and as a method for enhancing escape artist checks to get through bars and so forth.

Greg

 

[Bronn Spellforger]

Just spoke with my DM ... he said he would consider allowing us to try and sling the potion into the mouth of a creature ... assuming the mouth was extremely big, and we found a way to unstop the potion so that it spilled out inside.

Are there any rules about this kind of thing anywhere?

 

[Galfridus]

3E seems to have done...questionable things to the Enlarge and Reduce spells.

The problems seems rooted in the fact that there are now concrete size categories with benefits and penalties for each. Enlarge is weird because you can end up with 12' tall characters who are still considered Medium size -- because making them Large size would be too powerful for a 1st level spell.

It's on my to-do list to come up with more sensible versions of these spells. IMO, Reduce should alter your size category with all appropriate effects: increased AC and attack, decreased move and Str, the skill bonuses, etc. I don't think a one category size change would be abusive.

Enlarge is a little tougher, since going up one size category gives you so much Strength. Might even become a higher level spell.

 

[dcollins]

Enlarge is weird because you can end up with 12' tall characters who are still considered Medium size... since going up one size category gives you so much Strength. Might even become a higher level spell.

Enlarge as written actually makes more sense than most people give it credit for; especially, one must realize that a size category increase is always x2 height, not merely 2" if you start out at 7'-11".

See here for more on the subject: www.superdan.net/dndmisc/enlarge.html

 

[Galfridus]

Enlarge as written actually makes more sense than most people give it credit for; especially, one must realize that a size category increase is always x2 height, not merely 2" if you start out at 7'-11".

See here for more on the subject: www.superdan.net/dndmisc/enlarge.html

I agree that a 10% increase (note that a 7'11" character is going to grow at least 9-10" from Enlarge, not 2") that happens to take you across the Medium/Large boundary shouldn't suddenly give you all the benefits of a Large creature. At the same time, a 6' human who becomes 9' but doesn't gain any benefits like reach and the like seems, well, odd. I don't think it's unbalanced -- I think it's inconsistent.

I'm a little confused by the web page you linked to: it seems to imply that Enlarge grants an AC penalty and Con bonus at the highest level, when the SRD description makes no such statement.

 

[Forrester]

I agree that a 50% increase in size shouldn't change weapon reach, etc., if only for simplicity's sake. Treating M-sized characters differently is . . . worrisome when it comes to such things.

However, a full Reduce (shrinking one to half normal size) really should change things. A 7' tall guy being shrunk to three-and-a-half feet tall is a size change from M to S, no matter how you slice it. ANY Medium creature undergoing a 50% reduction turns into a Small creature; a similar statement can't be said for Enlarge.

I can't imagine *not* giving a fully Reduced creature +4 to Hide, +1 to AC, +1 to hit, lesser weapon damage, and a reduced movement rate.

Similarly, I think there is a psionic power that allows for 100% Enlargement, correct? Again, I can't imagine not giving the guy a full size adjustment.

 

[MythandLore]

I guess you haven't read the "Queen of the Demon Web Pits" Novel that came out.
According to that it's so Faries and Humans can -Ahem- eachother. -wink- -wink-

 

[dcollins]

I'm a little confused by the web page you linked to: it seems to imply that Enlarge grants an AC penalty and Con bonus at the highest level, when the SRD description makes no such statement.

No, it shows that you would get those bonuses by strict application of the formula, and the text notes that "Abbreviating the rule by ignoring the minimal extra adjustments at the 50% category (for Con and AC/Attack) is a sensible streamlining."

At any rate, half a size increase should not, in general, result in increased reach. You don't even get that for every full size category increase.