Pounce

[Darklone]

That spell is only (well mostly) available for druids.

Bye
Thanee

I thought mcgeedis was talking about a druid in leopard form ?

 

[Thanee]

I thought mcgeedis was talking about a druid in leopard form ?

I see. Nevermind, then.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

When you charge (move and make a single attack), you can follow it up with a full attack (one attack from each natural weapon).

Well, it only says 'follow' and while it's unclear, it's probably reasonable enough to assume they mean follow the move with a full attack instead of the single attack.

Bye
Thanee

 

[gnfnrf]

Well, it only says 'follow' and while it's unclear, it's probably reasonable enough to assume they mean follow the move with a full attack instead of the single attack.

No, it doesn't even say "follow".

If we want to nitpick the wording, lets nitpick the actual wording. (Thanee, I know this isn't your fault.)

The leopard's pounce says

If a leopard charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.

This is ENTIRELY AMBIGUOUS as to whether the full attack replaces the single attack or follows it.

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gnfnrf

 

[Thanee]

I had been looking at the general description of Pounce as follows ()...

Pounce (Ex): When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.

And for completeness sake...

CHARGE

Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move.

Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)

If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent.

You can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.

If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.

Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll. and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

A charging character gets a +2 bonus on the Strength check made to bull rush an opponent (see Bull Rush, above).

Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.

Lances and Charge Attacks: A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge.

Weapons Readied against a Charge: Spears, tridents, and certain other piercing weapons deal double damage when readied (set) and used against a charging character.

The underlined part is what I think the 'follow' above is meant to refer to.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

This is ENTIRELY AMBIGUOUS

No, it isn't.

In order to charge a foe, you must take the charge action.

The charge action involves movement and an attack.

When you charge someone, you get to make a full attack. A full attack is a separate action.

If, instead, the desire had been to replace the single attack in the charge action with a full attack, that would have been trivially easy to write:

When a creature with Pounce charges a foe, it does not make a single attack after moving. Instead, it may attack as if taking the full attack action, including any rake attacks it may have.

 

[billd91]

Are we really going to get into the question of what pounce means again? That remained unresolved the last time between people who interpreted it as meaning you get the charge attack and then the full attack vs those who interpreted it as meaning you get the full attack instead of the attack at the end of the charge movement.

Let's just leave it at "People interpret it either way" and be done with it.

 

[eamon]

The creatures that actually have the pounce ability seem to generally have a line saying something along the lines of "If a dire lion charges, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks", which suggests to me that the full attack replaces the normal standard attack. If such a creature could make the full attack in addition to a standard attack it would say so, just as it mentions the rake attacks. The fact that the glossary uses the word follows is simply an imprecision owing to the fact that the word "charge" is somewhat ambiguous.

In plain english, charges are the act of rushing towards your enemy, and not so much the attacking itself. In any case, given the descriptions and plain common sense (normally a D&D charge is movement followed by a single attack), I think the "followed by" in the short description of pounce clearly refers to following the movement.

Why would the -2 (or -5 without multiattack) penalty not apply to the rake attacks? They're not the primary natural attack, after all. Rakes used in grapple instead of the "normal" primary attack would not suffer the multiattack penalty, but when used in conjunction with pounce, I can't see anything that makes them different from other natural attacks.

In short, I think that pounce's full attack replaces the normal standard attack, and that the charge bonus applies to all attacks of that full attack, and that the multiattack penalty applies to all attacks beyond the primary natural attack - including rakes.

 

[Thanee]

A full attack is a separate action.

As is a melee attack.

Charge is a special case for a reason. Pounce is even more special.

Lacking any specific language at all, it could be anything.

Bye
Thanee

 

[gnfnrf]

No, it isn't.

In order to charge a foe, you must take the charge action.

The charge action involves movement and an attack.

When you charge someone, you get to make a full attack. A full attack is a separate action.

If, instead, the desire had been to replace the single attack in the charge action with a full attack, that would have been trivially easy to write:

It would have been easy to say "in addition to the normal attack from charging" as well. But, they didn't. Thus, it's ambiguous.

You assume they mean "a separate full attack". I think they could equally mean "a full attack as part of the charge" but the text itself says neither.

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gnfnrf