Pounce

[Dinkeldog]

Can a creature pounce in the surprise round? If not, then what good is it?

Is anyone else inclined to allow pounce whenever the creature charges, instead?

 

[Ysgarran]

I allow pounce in the surprise around, at the end of a charge,
and at the end of a regular move. The main limitation is that the pounce takes places in the first round of combat. If it is a particular smart creature (like a weretiger) I would allow it to run off and try to sneak back to repeat the process. If it was an animal intelligence creature, then it would just stay in fight until it thought it was going to get killed...

From SRD:
http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd/srdmonstersanimals.html
Pounce (Ex): If a leopard leaps upon a foe during the first round of combat, it can make a full attack even if it has already taken a move action

later,
Ysgarran.

 

[0-hr]

Pounce (Ex): If a leopard leaps upon a foe during the first round of combat, it can make a full attack even if it has already taken a move action

So basically, if the critter would be able move and then execute a single attack, it can instead execute a full attack. Since it could partial charge and attack during the surprise round, it could indeed pounce.

Note that it could not just move and then pounce because it could not move and attack during a (partial) surprise round. It needs at least 10ft and a straight line so it can charge.

IMO, it also could not step 5ft (or stay in place) and pounce. Though it could do this and execute a single attack, this doesn't really sound like a "leap" (and the rule doesn't say it can just do a full attack as a partial action "whenever").

 

[Jeremy]

Yes. A creature with pounce can pounce in the surprise round. Surprise!

No. Letting a creature pounce every time it charges does not follow the "on the first round of combat" rule. The first round the cat enters combat it can pounce. That's it. It's powerful enough as it is.

 

[Dinkeldog]

I think it's poor wording again. I'm thinking it should have read more like, "On the first round of melee with a single target, if the creature moved more than 10', it can pounce."

That seems more like what makes sense, especially given that "combat" is an abstraction. The DM can start "combat" with the creatures at encounter range. If the creature can't make it to the character in the first round then he can't pounce. If the creature is taking ranged attacks from two adversaries, 50' apart, he can only pounce on the first, and only if they wait until he's within range. Seems sort of not right.

 

[Pielorinho]

When I got a tiger companion in the game I play in, my DM and I went back and forth over this wording. It's sucky and illogical, IMHO.

We settled on something that generally makes pounce less valuable, but more rational: pounce can be used on any opponent who is denied a dexterity bonus.

If a tiger wants to pounce in the first round of combat, he'd better win initiative: if his opponent gets to ready her sword, the tiger is gonna have trouble pouncing successfully.

However, if me and my buddies are attacking a party of orcs, my tiger can sneak around onto a ledge behind them and then pounce. Alternatively, our friendly local wizard can cast invisibility on the tiger; once he's done weirding out over his new appearance, he becomes a nasty pouncer extraordinaire.

This is, obv, a house rule; it's more consistent than the real rule, I think.

Daniel

 

[mikebr99]

I would think that once the cat had finished off his first opponent, he could then charge and pounce on the next guy... assuming he can meet the charge requirements.

 

[Pielorinho]

I would think that once the cat had finished off his first opponent, he could then charge and pounce on the next guy... assuming he can meet the charge requirements.

The problem with that is that pounce is already a very powerful ability. Increasing the circumstances under which it can be used makes it even more powerful.

I recommend against making pounce more powerful than the rules describe.

Daniel

 

[mikebr99]

The problem with that is that pounce is already a very powerful ability. Increasing the circumstances under which it can be used makes it even more powerful.

I recommend against making pounce more powerful than the rules describe.

Daniel

I would still limit it to once per individual... and state that the cat should finish off the first target completely before he charges across the battlefield and pounces on another.

I see the Pounce as the way the cat initiates ANY new combat with a foe.

 

[Pielorinho]

I would still limit it to once per individual... and state that the cat should finish off the first target completely before he charges across the battlefield and pounces on another.

I see the Pounce as the way the cat initiates ANY new combat with a foe.

While that's a rational way to look at it, I still think it makes the ability much more useful. If you do this, I'd suggest raising the creature's CR to account for the improved power. And I'd suggest reworking the animal friendship spell: currently it's based off of animal hit dice, and CR for animals seems to max out at half hit-dice. This will throw that out of whack, making druids who take tiger companions disproportionately powerful.

This is based on my playing through a dozen or more combats with a cat companion; pounce is an incredibly good power, and your suggestion makes it even better.

Daniel