My friend had a moment of prescience today and just tossed this idea out of the blue. What if power attack penalized AC? It is beautiful, in my opinion, as power attack seems to represent a reckless overextension of one's combat stance. What do you think of this? Would you penalize To Hit and A.C., or just A.C., or do you not like the idea at all? I don't know about the rest of you but in my game power attack is out of hand. Later!
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Power Attack alternate ruling. Would like opinions please.
- Thread starter mirivor
- Start date
If Power Attack is too good in your game, I think even having it ONLY penalize AC will make it worthless. Though if you look at PA, it does NOT necessarily a "reckless overextension one's combat stance" as much as "I want to hit him, HARD, and I don't care where...."
But that is neither here nor there.....
What exactly is it about PA that makes it out of control in your campaign?
But that is neither here nor there.....
What exactly is it about PA that makes it out of control in your campaign?
Honestly, I think it is our higher stats. See, we are co-DMing this campaign... an older friend and I. He is the story buff whereas I am the rules geek. Together, we make a good team, but he gave us fairly high stats. I think that each of us has an effective 36 point-buy.
As far as actual in-game trouble, it equates to MASSIVE damage. Our front-line fighters make the remainder of the team feel... inadequate. When my dual-wielding fighter rogue strikes with BOTH Great scimitars for a massive 14 damage (18 Str, mind you.) and then the fighter swings with his bastard sword for 24, it really takes the wind out of everyone else's sails. The entire party is looking to pick up two-handed weapons now. The raging barbarian is even worse, routinely dealing mid-30s with his greatsword. I feel that power attack is too powerful because it is a feat that nearly all fighters (in my experience) take. Whenever I see nearly every example of a certain class taking feat X, alarms ring in my skull. Natural spell for druids is a prime example.
As far as actual in-game trouble, it equates to MASSIVE damage. Our front-line fighters make the remainder of the team feel... inadequate. When my dual-wielding fighter rogue strikes with BOTH Great scimitars for a massive 14 damage (18 Str, mind you.) and then the fighter swings with his bastard sword for 24, it really takes the wind out of everyone else's sails. The entire party is looking to pick up two-handed weapons now. The raging barbarian is even worse, routinely dealing mid-30s with his greatsword. I feel that power attack is too powerful because it is a feat that nearly all fighters (in my experience) take. Whenever I see nearly every example of a certain class taking feat X, alarms ring in my skull. Natural spell for druids is a prime example.
Apparently, PA was supposed to use the .5/1/1.5 multipliers just like strength. They went with 0/1/2 because they were concerned the .5's would be too difficult to multiply.
And what they don't see, is the number of times you miss *because* you are power attacking. And the number of times your extra damage is worthless because of overkill.
And what does it take to dual weild 2 great scimitars?? (and what are their stats?)
Besides, how much of that damage is from PA?
And how inadequate does the fighter feel when the mage fireballs a ton of people, or the bard gives everyone +2/+2 for the combat, etc.
And what they don't see, is the number of times you miss *because* you are power attacking. And the number of times your extra damage is worthless because of overkill.
And what does it take to dual weild 2 great scimitars?? (and what are their stats?)
Besides, how much of that damage is from PA?
And how inadequate does the fighter feel when the mage fireballs a ton of people, or the bard gives everyone +2/+2 for the combat, etc.
It will make the problem even worse. Suddenly you will be able to PA to your hearts content against all opponents regardless of their AC.
At least a normal barbarian would simply dump all he can in power attack and count on killing most things before they can even hit back.
If I was playing the fighter/barb it would mean even more use of PA. Note that there is a tactical feat (Shock trooper) in CW that allows you to this, but only when charging. So at least WotC thinks that the trick is worth a couple of entry feats (to even take Shock trooper) and should only be an option in special cases.
If you do the math for PA you will find that its not really that effective. It only really shines when fighting low AC, high Hp enemies.
And of course most fighter types (including multiclassed and barbarians) will end up with that feat.
1. it opens up a lot of juicy feats like cleave.
2. There aren't that many good feats for a fighter to take, and some of them requires high int, high dex etc. PA requires just high str and most fighters has that.
And if fighters dominate most battles IMO thats a good thing. Its usually the only thing they are good at. As soon as the game deals with other things than combat fighters contribute with ....nothing.
And if you are dual wielding great scimitars (khopesh ?) with a less than full BAB character and can still hit your enemies I'm thinking the biggest problem in the game ain't PA
At least a normal barbarian would simply dump all he can in power attack and count on killing most things before they can even hit back.
If I was playing the fighter/barb it would mean even more use of PA. Note that there is a tactical feat (Shock trooper) in CW that allows you to this, but only when charging. So at least WotC thinks that the trick is worth a couple of entry feats (to even take Shock trooper) and should only be an option in special cases.
If you do the math for PA you will find that its not really that effective. It only really shines when fighting low AC, high Hp enemies.
And of course most fighter types (including multiclassed and barbarians) will end up with that feat.
1. it opens up a lot of juicy feats like cleave.
2. There aren't that many good feats for a fighter to take, and some of them requires high int, high dex etc. PA requires just high str and most fighters has that.
And if fighters dominate most battles IMO thats a good thing. Its usually the only thing they are good at. As soon as the game deals with other things than combat fighters contribute with ....nothing.
And if you are dual wielding great scimitars (khopesh ?) with a less than full BAB character and can still hit your enemies I'm thinking the biggest problem in the game ain't PA
FireLance
Legend
My two main problems with Power Attack are that it scales too quickly, and it can bog down the game because the player has to decide how much he is power attacking for and recalculate his attack and damage bonuses accordingly.
I'm toying with the idea of changing Power Attack as follows. A fighter feat is a feat that a fighter can select as a bonus feat.
POWER ATTACK (Fighter)
Prerequisite: Str 13
On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may decide to take a -2 penalty on all attack rolls to gain a bonus on your melee damage rolls. With weapons that you wield with two hands, you gain a +4 bonus to damage, +1 for every 3 fighter feats that you possess. With weapons that you wield with one hand, you gain a +2 bonus to damage, +1 for every 6 fighter feats that you possess. With light weapons, you gain a +1 bonus to damage, +1 for every 9 fighter feats that you possess. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.
An unarmed strike is treated as if it was a weapon that you wield with one hand. If you attack with both ends of a double weapon, each end is treated as if it was a weapon that you wield with one hand. If you attack with only one end of a double weapon that you wield with two hands, you treat it as if it was a weapon that you wield with two hands.
A weapon used with Weapon Finesse is treated as if it was of the next less advantageous category, so a spiked chain used with Weapon Finesse deals extra damage as if it was a weapon you wield in one hand, and a rapier used with Weapon Finesse deals extra damage as if it was a light weapon. A light weapon used with Weapon Finesse still deals extra damage as if it was a light weapon.
A barbarian can add the number of times he can rage per day to the number of fighter feats that he possesses to determine the effectiveness of this feat.
I'm toying with the idea of changing Power Attack as follows. A fighter feat is a feat that a fighter can select as a bonus feat.
POWER ATTACK (Fighter)
Prerequisite: Str 13
On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may decide to take a -2 penalty on all attack rolls to gain a bonus on your melee damage rolls. With weapons that you wield with two hands, you gain a +4 bonus to damage, +1 for every 3 fighter feats that you possess. With weapons that you wield with one hand, you gain a +2 bonus to damage, +1 for every 6 fighter feats that you possess. With light weapons, you gain a +1 bonus to damage, +1 for every 9 fighter feats that you possess. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.
An unarmed strike is treated as if it was a weapon that you wield with one hand. If you attack with both ends of a double weapon, each end is treated as if it was a weapon that you wield with one hand. If you attack with only one end of a double weapon that you wield with two hands, you treat it as if it was a weapon that you wield with two hands.
A weapon used with Weapon Finesse is treated as if it was of the next less advantageous category, so a spiked chain used with Weapon Finesse deals extra damage as if it was a weapon you wield in one hand, and a rapier used with Weapon Finesse deals extra damage as if it was a light weapon. A light weapon used with Weapon Finesse still deals extra damage as if it was a light weapon.
A barbarian can add the number of times he can rage per day to the number of fighter feats that he possesses to determine the effectiveness of this feat.
In the short, then, most of you are alright with it. Cool. I will leave it alone then.
Coredump: concerning your questions: The Great Scimitar can be found in Sandstorm. It is an exotic weapon with 1D8 damage and an 18-20/x2 crit. To dual wield two of them without penalty beyond the norm for 2 weapon fighting, you need Two-weapon Fighting, Exotic Weapon: Great Scimitar, and Wield Oversized Weapon from the Complete Adventurer.
With respect to your other question, the majority of the fighters in my group have an 18 strength, usually using full power attack for an extra 8 damage.
monboesen: It really isn't as bad as the name of my weapon makes it sound. See above response for more info. I also agree with your reasoning concerning Power Attack's efficiency.
Thank you, boys and girls, for your time and thoughts. Later all!
Coredump: concerning your questions: The Great Scimitar can be found in Sandstorm. It is an exotic weapon with 1D8 damage and an 18-20/x2 crit. To dual wield two of them without penalty beyond the norm for 2 weapon fighting, you need Two-weapon Fighting, Exotic Weapon: Great Scimitar, and Wield Oversized Weapon from the Complete Adventurer.
With respect to your other question, the majority of the fighters in my group have an 18 strength, usually using full power attack for an extra 8 damage.
monboesen: It really isn't as bad as the name of my weapon makes it sound. See above response for more info. I also agree with your reasoning concerning Power Attack's efficiency.
Thank you, boys and girls, for your time and thoughts. Later all!
I have been playing martial characters my whole career as a gamer. What I can tell ya is this: If Power Attack is "to powerful" in your game then I would say that what you are facing is far to weak. Sure maybe your EL's look fine - but I can get an EL 20 and still have a target with a 10 AC - making it perfect for Power Attack use.
As far as combat goes - a fighter should be able to outmaneuver a foe (using the right feats at the right time), and a Barbarian should be able to dish out more damage than most others - that is what a Barbarian is = a damage machine. If someone is a rouge/fighter you should not complain about not being as good at combat as a pure fighter or barbarian; you picked an additional class that isn't!
If the party all starts taking up two handed weapons and taking the Power Attack feat then I would say they are all dead - keep in mind using a two handed weapon means you don't have the use of a shield or buckler of any kind. It also means your going to have to get in close and get dirty - something that d8's and below are not optimized with when wielding two handed weapons (or at all fo that matter!). Rangers are an exception but they, by necessity, also TEND TO have higher Dex AND Str scores versus rouges, for example, that focus on Dex and Int. A ranger is still not optimized using Power Attack by an means; if your using TWF then Power Attack negates the benefit of the additional attacks in most cases. If he has archery what is he doing standing there with a greatsword?
Power Attack is not meant to be a "bonus" per se like Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization but a trade off. It only becomes a "bonus" in specific circumstances (like the vast majority of feats). It is a Maneuver (noting fighters per the PHB are experts at maneuver's; not damage or BAB or anything else)
The BAB penalty can be explained in various ways in "reality". However as a game mechanic I would think that this is done (BAB versus Damage) as an equal trade off in melee. Mechanically using Power Attack you have less of a chance of hitting but when ya do you do more damage. That same logic is, in part, what drives the Barbarian class. He can rage but when he does he gives up certain things - and he gets the Rage instead of piles of feats.
Your idea messes up the whole mechanic here you see - when you reduce AC you are taking the mechanic elsewhere. Using Combat expertise - your ability to hit is reduced at the same time your AC increases (equal tradeoff - you can hit them less; they can hit you less; same mechanic at work). Your idea gives you an internal increase in damage and a decrease entirely dependant on the outside.
Regarding Attacking - BAB is related to AC (overcome AC or not). BAB is related to Damage (Overcome AC and do Damage)- Damage is NOT RELATED to AC (Once AC is overcome by BAB damage is independent of that). Look at class builds and feats; note how this seems to hold true (at least IMO)
In the case of the "Shock Trooper" feat from Complete Warrior - the Heedless Charge maneuver - it is VERY situational: useable in a charge. This is the balance; it can only be used in certain circumstances but the mechanic above still plays out.
Anything that changes BAB, AC or Damage in combat needs to be carefully scrutinized. And don't look at the PC's first; look at what you are facing first. If the party constantly fights 20th level Hobgoblin fighters dressed in loincloths; well Power Attack will work pretty well here regardless of those Hobgoblins' BAB. The EL may look great…but is it really? You can max your Power Attack every attack and hit with every attack. Fighting say a 10th level Hobgoblin Fighter in +2 Breastplate would actually be harder!
P.S. I think Oversized TWF is the most unbalanced feat out there and do not allow it in my game! Same with Monkey Grip (the Munchkins favorite feat I would think)
As far as combat goes - a fighter should be able to outmaneuver a foe (using the right feats at the right time), and a Barbarian should be able to dish out more damage than most others - that is what a Barbarian is = a damage machine. If someone is a rouge/fighter you should not complain about not being as good at combat as a pure fighter or barbarian; you picked an additional class that isn't!
If the party all starts taking up two handed weapons and taking the Power Attack feat then I would say they are all dead - keep in mind using a two handed weapon means you don't have the use of a shield or buckler of any kind. It also means your going to have to get in close and get dirty - something that d8's and below are not optimized with when wielding two handed weapons (or at all fo that matter!). Rangers are an exception but they, by necessity, also TEND TO have higher Dex AND Str scores versus rouges, for example, that focus on Dex and Int. A ranger is still not optimized using Power Attack by an means; if your using TWF then Power Attack negates the benefit of the additional attacks in most cases. If he has archery what is he doing standing there with a greatsword?
Power Attack is not meant to be a "bonus" per se like Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization but a trade off. It only becomes a "bonus" in specific circumstances (like the vast majority of feats). It is a Maneuver (noting fighters per the PHB are experts at maneuver's; not damage or BAB or anything else)
The BAB penalty can be explained in various ways in "reality". However as a game mechanic I would think that this is done (BAB versus Damage) as an equal trade off in melee. Mechanically using Power Attack you have less of a chance of hitting but when ya do you do more damage. That same logic is, in part, what drives the Barbarian class. He can rage but when he does he gives up certain things - and he gets the Rage instead of piles of feats.
Your idea messes up the whole mechanic here you see - when you reduce AC you are taking the mechanic elsewhere. Using Combat expertise - your ability to hit is reduced at the same time your AC increases (equal tradeoff - you can hit them less; they can hit you less; same mechanic at work). Your idea gives you an internal increase in damage and a decrease entirely dependant on the outside.
Regarding Attacking - BAB is related to AC (overcome AC or not). BAB is related to Damage (Overcome AC and do Damage)- Damage is NOT RELATED to AC (Once AC is overcome by BAB damage is independent of that). Look at class builds and feats; note how this seems to hold true (at least IMO)
In the case of the "Shock Trooper" feat from Complete Warrior - the Heedless Charge maneuver - it is VERY situational: useable in a charge. This is the balance; it can only be used in certain circumstances but the mechanic above still plays out.
Anything that changes BAB, AC or Damage in combat needs to be carefully scrutinized. And don't look at the PC's first; look at what you are facing first. If the party constantly fights 20th level Hobgoblin fighters dressed in loincloths; well Power Attack will work pretty well here regardless of those Hobgoblins' BAB. The EL may look great…but is it really? You can max your Power Attack every attack and hit with every attack. Fighting say a 10th level Hobgoblin Fighter in +2 Breastplate would actually be harder!
P.S. I think Oversized TWF is the most unbalanced feat out there and do not allow it in my game! Same with Monkey Grip (the Munchkins favorite feat I would think)
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