D&D 3E/3.5 Power Attack Fix in 3.5

[roguerouge]

Can someone explain to me why 3.5 adjusted Power Attack in the way that they did? Did it not work? Did it decrease average hit damage because the hit chance decrease over-compensated for the increased damage? (Anyone do a power attack table that gives a math answer to these questions?) Was it almost always better to take something that increased hit chance? If these were issues, did they fix them correctly or did they super-power it?

 

[Rystil Arden]

Can someone explain to me why 3.5 adjusted Power Attack in the way that they did? Did it not work? Did it decrease average hit damage because the hit chance decrease over-compensated for the increased damage? (Anyone do a power attack table that gives a math answer to these questions?) Was it almost always better to take something that increased hit chance? If these were issues, did they fix them correctly or did they super-power it?

The reason they changed Power Attack is that they realised it should give 1.5x for two-handed weapons and .5x for off-hand weapons, like Strength, to make Power Attacking as powerful for the guy with the big sword as the two-weapon wielder. However, they doubted the math-smarts of the average player and decided that doing 1.5x or .5x dynamically every round for a contantly-changing number would slow the game down too much, so they rounded to 2x and 0x. If your group is math-savvy enough to do the math quickly, I strongly recommend switching to 1.5x and .5x.

 

[Harm]

Wizard/sorcerer damage goes up by:
d4+1/2 levels (Magic Missle)
then
d6/level (Fire Ball)
then
2d6/level (Disintigrate)
then
save or die.

Meanwhile melee damage pretty much didn't go up other than the occasional +2 from feats or strength increases through level or magic items or weapon bonuses.

Then they added new spells and even cleric and druid damage goes up by:
d8/2 levels (Searing Light/Infict Wounds)
then
d8/level (Sound Lance)
then
10 pts/level (harm) or more (Greater Bolt of Glory)
then
save or die.

Along with the new spells they added Assay Spell Resist which eliminated spell resistance.

Power attack change lets melee increase their damage by:
2/level per attack, but at a very high chance to miss.

Both mages and melee can combine various feats or magic items to multiply or dramatically increase damage easily. Mages now can easily deal enough damage to kill monsters of their own HD with a single spell. Melee with stacked feats can similary deal enough damage to do the same given low enough AC or using spells to defeat AC.

Basically DnD is totally and completely broken at the moment if the DM doesn't reign in the players. The thought of using level appropriate CRs for even a marginally min-maxed characters is utterly ludicrous as it will be a total slaughter with no challenge at all.

 

[hong]

Wizard/sorcerer damage goes up by:
d4+1/2 levels (Magic Missle)
then
d6/level (Fire Ball)
then
2d6/level (Disintigrate)
then
save or die.

Meanwhile melee damage pretty much didn't go up other than the occasional +2 from feats or strength increases through level or magic items or weapon bonuses.

Then they added new spells and even cleric and druid damage goes up by:
d8/2 levels (Searing Light/Infict Wounds)
then
d8/level (Sound Lance)
then
10 pts/level (harm) or more (Greater Bolt of Glory)
then
save or die.

Along with the new spells they added Assay Spell Resist which eliminated spell resistance.

Power attack change lets melee increase their damage by:
2/level per attack, but at a very high chance to miss.

Both mages and melee can combine various feats or magic items to multiply or dramatically increase damage easily. Mages now can easily deal enough damage to kill monsters of their own HD with a single spell. Melee with stacked feats can similary deal enough damage to do the same given low enough AC or using spells to defeat AC.

Basically DnD is totally and completely broken at the moment if the DM doesn't reign in the players. The thought of using level appropriate CRs for even a marginally min-maxed characters is utterly ludicrous as it will be a total slaughter with no challenge at all.

Oh well.

 

[Krafen]

Guess it's time for a new edition.

 

[Someone]

Did it decrease average hit damage because the hit chance decrease over-compensated for the increased damage? (Anyone do a power attack table that gives a math answer to these questions?)

That's more or less the reason. I've previously done the math here, though I'm now feeling lazy so you will have to (or not to) trust me in this. Basically, if your average damage per hit is high enough (around 19-20, and that's not difficult at all for a two handed fighter, even with suboptimal builds) then it's never advantageous to Power Attack, unless you still hit with a 2+ even with the decreased attack bonus, so PA doesn't mechanically benefit users of big two handed weapons (roleplaying and macho benefits of dealing 50 hit points of damage aside). Conversely, if your attack bonus is very high and your damage per hit relatively low, such as users of finessed small weapons, then you can mechanically benefit a lot from Power Attack.

The designers probably intended Power Attack a feat that big brute fighter would take, not wimpy rogues or TWFers, so they changed it in 3.5 to reward two handed weapons and punish light ones.

When we switched to 3.5 in the campaing I was DMing, I first started doing it +1.5 for two handers and +0.5 for light weapons. It wasn't a house rule - it seemed so natural that I misread the rules change to Power Attack and did that mistake. It took weeks to realize the error.

 

[Li Shenron]

Can someone explain to me why 3.5 adjusted Power Attack in the way that they did? Did it not work? Did it decrease average hit damage because the hit chance decrease over-compensated for the increased damage? (Anyone do a power attack table that gives a math answer to these questions?) Was it almost always better to take something that increased hit chance? If these were issues, did they fix them correctly or did they super-power it?

Character using Power Attack with light weapons were too powerful. Every light-weapon wielding character always took PA....

 

[Moon-Lancer]

Power attack 1:1 with light weapons are is pritty strong, but consecently, How does a rogue not suck when fighting undead, elementals, plants and constructs? A normal knife twf charicter cant seem to do enuff damage to get past damage reduction.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

All difficult enemies:
A. 1 level of barbarian, Power Attack, and a two handed weapon.
B. Use Magic Device and scrolls, wands, or staves.

Undead: Imbue with spell ability: grave strike alternately: a holy weapon; Libris mortis had a weapon add that was a +2 mod and allowed sneak attacks on incorporeal undead. That would help.
Plants: no real good option here. Vine strike IIRC allows them to sneak attack plants but would require multiclassing with druid. A plant bane weapon would hurt. So would most kinds of energy damage (though you'd need to be careful not to hit shambling mounds with a shock weapon).
Constructs: adamantine weapon and a decent strength. Construct bane will also help
elementals: There's not much to do here. A frost, elemental bane weapon would help.

Power attack 1:1 with light weapons are is pritty strong, but consecently, How does a rogue not suck when fighting undead, elementals, plants and constructs? A normal knife twf charicter cant seem to do enuff damage to get past damage reduction.

 

[Crothian]

How does a rogue not suck when fighting undead, elementals, plants and constructs?

Ya, they do. And that's not a bad thing.