power balance - h4ter needs help

[lutecius]

I’ve been toying with some power point idea to fix that encounter/daily nonsense improvement and would like some input from you 4ons 4e enthusiasts
Please mods don’t cast me into houserule limbo yet, this is more about understanding the rules' balance and implications than showing off some fan creation (I don’t think I qualify as a fan anyway)

Can you think of cases when using a power twice in the same encounter would be broken? I know that involves questioning the "can’t take an encounter power twice" restriction but do you think it’s just about the unfun repetitive use of a single power, or do you see it as an actual balance issue?

This one is a bit trickier. How many encounter powers would you sacrifice for an extra daily of approximately the same level (they can’t technically have the same level) and vice versa?

eg Do you think being able to use a daily twice is worth not using an encounter power for, say 3 encounters?

Conversely, do you think sacrificing a daily for 3 extra encounter powers per day is a fair trade?

It doesn’t have to be the same number in both cases, but that would help.
Note this is about multiple uses of powers you already know, not learning extra powers.

 

[AMP Productions]

If you truly wanted to be able to make it so you can swap powers for powers, and use multiple encounters in the same encounter, heres what I would suggest.

This is the only arbitrary part. Assume that you have on average 5 encounters a day.

The math is concrete after this point. At first level, you have 2 at wills, 1 encounter, and 1 daily. So at 5 encounters a day you have 5 encounters and 1 daily. Now assign a point cost for the encounters and at wills. if you wanted the daily to count as 3 encounters (as you suggested) then the daily would be worth 3 times that of an encounter. to make it easy, lets say...

Encounter = 1
Daily = 3

you get a number of Exploit/prayer/spell points per day.

At level one you would have 8 points (5(1 for each encounter)+3(for one daily.)

Every time you use an power it costs points.

At wills = 0
Encounters = 1
Dailies = 3

So at level one you could....

Do 5 encounters and one daily / day (standard) or...
8 encounters a day
2 dailies and 2 encounters, ect.

You'd have to do the math as the levels increase, but then you can use whatever you want, whenever you want, but get fatigued, tired, etc after your points are used and you have to take an extended rest.

that work for you?

 

[Deverash]

Interesting idea. You could extend it further, and give people, say, 2 points per encounter at each level. Then you could save up your "power points" to be able to use your daily, or use your encounter powers more often, but never be able to get your daily power off.

To address the OP, from what I understand, the restriction on being able to re-use encounter powers is partly balance, and partly to prevent "spamming." Higher level powers are flat out better than lower level powers. To that end, I'd be more willing to allow some to give up the use of a 7th level encounter power to re-use their 3rd level encounter power(and the same with dailies). Part of it as well is how many of each type you can use in each encounter, as well. If you really want people to reuse, ecounter powers, I'd use something like that.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I don't see why you couldn't/shouldn't allow a PC to burn a higher level encounter slot to repeat use of a lower level encounter power. That maintains the intended balance of higher level encounter powers, but gives the PC some greater flexibility.

I noticed this while doing some playtesting yesterday -- I reached a point in some combats where some powers were expended and the remaining available powers really didn't apply (Cleave when there's only one target in range, for example), and so the PC was just using basic attacks. The ability to trade down might provide a useful workaround. I'm surprised the designers didn't think of it (or maybe they did, and rejected it for unknown reasons).

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

I’ve been toying with some power point idea to fix that encounter/daily nonsense improvement and would like some input from you 4ons 4e enthusiasts
Please mods don’t cast me into houserule limbo yet, this is more about understanding the rules' balance and implications than showing off some fan creation (I don’t think I qualify as a fan anyway)

Can you think of cases when using a power twice in the same encounter would be broken? I know that involves questioning the "can’t take an encounter power twice" restriction but do you think it’s just about the unfun repetitive use of a single power, or do you see it as an actual balance issue?

This one is a bit trickier. How many encounter powers would you sacrifice for an extra daily of approximately the same level (they can’t technically have the same level) and vice versa?

eg Do you think being able to use a daily twice is worth not using an encounter power for, say 3 encounters?

Conversely, do you think sacrificing a daily for 3 extra encounter powers per day is a fair trade?

It doesn’t have to be the same number in both cases, but that would help.
Note this is about multiple uses of powers you already know, not learning extra powers.

0. Insulting people isn't the best way to ask for help.

1. Well, first off, in 4e you get different encounter powers of different levels, so (for example) if a 3rd-level character could use a 3rd-level power twice, he'd be a lot better off than a standard character who has to use a 3rd-level and a 1st-level power.

Second, this change would affect power selection, making some characters a lot more flexible. For example, a cleric might only take one healing power (since he can use it to heal whenever he wants), freeing up more slots for non-healing powers.

Third, some powers are way better than others. This isn't a HUGE deal as is, because you can only use the overpowered ones a max of once per encounter, but it'd cause significant imbalance if the overpowered abilities could be used repeatedly.

2. This completely depends on how many encounters the DM tends to run between extended rests.

Overall, I'd be hesitant to overhaul the system like this until you've given it a decent shot as written.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I’ve been toying with some power point idea to fix that encounter/daily nonsense improvement and would like some input from you 4ons 4e enthusiasts
Please mods don’t cast me into houserule limbo yet, this is more about understanding the rules' balance and implications than showing off some fan creation (I don’t think I qualify as a fan anyway)

You're talking about variant rules, so to the houserule forum it goes.

Hardly a limbo, as it is very active (and you'll get input from people who are interested in tweaking stuff too)

 

[Destil]

Can you think of cases when using a power twice in the same encounter would be broken? I know that involves questioning the "can’t take an encounter power twice" restriction but do you think it’s just about the unfun repetitive use of a single power, or do you see it as an actual balance issue?

I doubt it's unbalanced as long as you're looking at trading say your 1st and your 3rd for two 1sts. But it is a bit more boring. A huge part of the system is to force a variety of tactics on people..

There are some unbalancing elements. I believe part of the fact that fighters only get 'weapons matter' powers every few levels, for example, is to prevent you from having these for all your powers and potentially getting too many bonuses from secondary ability scores. But the reduced level should fight this a bit, and it could also just be a way to try and fight MAD.

 

[lutecius]

Thanks for your suggestions.
We only played a few sessions, just to give 4e a shot, but weren't interested in playing it as-is anymore. We may try again when more options come out (more inspiring classes and powers, more varied mechanics.) In the mean time i'm trying to "fix" what doesn't work for me.
That's why i need the opinions of those with more experience and better understanding of the rules, but i know it's a bit early for that.

Every time you use an power it costs points.
At wills = 0
Encounters = 1
Dailies = 3
[...]that work for you?

Yes, that is more or less what i had in mind.
The tricky part is to establish that encounter/daily ratio.
I have no idea if 1 daily for 3 encounters is balanced, i just pulled that number out of the air.

To address the OP, from what I understand, the restriction on being able to re-use encounter powers is partly balance, and partly to prevent "spamming." Higher level powers are flat out better than lower level powers. To that end, I'd be more willing to allow some to give up the use of a 7th level encounter power to re-use their 3rd level encounter power(and the same with dailies). Part of it as well is how many of each type you can use in each encounter, as well. If you really want people to reuse, ecounter powers, I'd use something like that.

I don't see why you couldn't/shouldn't allow a PC to burn a higher level encounter slot to repeat use of a lower level encounter power. That maintains the intended balance of higher level encounter powers, but gives the PC some greater flexibility.

I noticed this while doing some playtesting yesterday -- I reached a point in some combats where some powers were expended and the remaining available powers really didn't apply (Cleave when there's only one target in range, for example), and so the PC was just using basic attacks. The ability to trade down might provide a useful workaround. I'm surprised the designers didn't think of it (or maybe they did, and rejected it for unknown reasons).

Yeah I guess that's what i'll end up doing. But i was hoping to make things a bit more flexible and player friendly. A common power pool and a cost for each power would have been more elegant too.

But balancing the costs for encounters and dailies of different levels seems like a pain. And utility powers can be at will, encounter or daily which is another can of worms.

0. Insulting people isn't the best way to ask for help.

1. Well, first off, in 4e you get different encounter powers of different levels, so (for example) if a 3rd-level character could use a 3rd-level power twice, he'd be a lot better off than a standard character who has to use a 3rd-level and a 1st-level power.

Second, this change would affect power selection, making some characters a lot more flexible. For example, a cleric might only take one healing power (since he can use it to heal whenever he wants), freeing up more slots for non-healing powers.

Third, some powers are way better than others. This isn't a HUGE deal as is, because you can only use the overpowered ones a max of once per encounter, but it'd cause significant imbalance if the overpowered abilities could be used repeatedly.

2. This completely depends on how many encounters the DM tends to run between extended rests.

Overall, I'd be hesitant to overhaul the system like this until you've given it a decent shot as written.

0. I know things can get pretty intense these days but that was really meant as humour. I would have called myself a 3tard in the title, but i'm not sticking with 3e either.

1. Good point about clerics. Do they tend to pick lots of healing powers in your games? what about warlords?

Yes i'm afraid the balance between different builds or even classes may depend on some powers not being used several times. Do do you have examples of blatant overpowered abilities compared to others of the same level?

2. I think the devs said the hps and powers were balanced for 4 or 5 encounters /day but I don't think that means 1 daily is worth 5 encounter powers.

You're talking about variant rules, so to the houserule forum it goes.

What? No...this can't be! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaargh......

 

[Thasmodious]

0. Insulting people isn't the best way to ask for help.

He can't help it, being a 3eeb. They are simple, simple creatures.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Can you think of cases when using a power twice in the same encounter would be broken?
... but do you think it’s just about the unfun repetitive use of a single power, or do you see it as an actual balance issue?

I see an actual balance issue. There is no way to get every power of a given level at the same power level. Some will be more useful in more circumstances than others.
By limiting the use an a given power to once per encounter, you minimize the impact of a 'I WIN!' power that fits the encounter perfectly.
On the other hand, if you allow that power to be used multiple times and have a string of encounters that are similar...the character with the 'right' power will be stronger than the system, and other players, expects.

If this a bad thing? depends on your play style and gaming group.

I prefer the creativity that the limitation encourages.

Power point systems, in general, tend to encourage flexibility to adapt the best option for the circumstance. As long as you have varying circumstances, this too can lead to creativity.


Oh, and welcome to the ever active Limbo where the occupants have little to do but fuss over system tweaks