Power levels and more - Andy Collins quotes

[Brother MacLaren]

You can be very, very effective with non-standard parties. However...

...what happened when you hit Energy Drain?
...what happened when you hit Ability Drain?

The latter managed to complete muck up a party I ran on the Island of Dread. They got Con drained, and had no access to restoration - the one spell of the cleric that other classes need, and only Very High Level Paladins have it. Watching a 12th level character wander around with 15 hp was amusing.

Cheers!

I don't recall there being any energy drain -- we knew from the beginning that undead were not a major factor in this world, that being one reason I went with druid rather than cleric. (The other reason being that the DM went back to the "blunt weapons only" rule.) I do recall ability damage (from stirges) being treated with Lesser Restoration and rest. My druid always kept a Death Ward spell ready just in case we ran into undead. At high levels, the druid can summon a celestial charger unicorn, which has Restoration.

Permanent ability drain normally has a save, right? Our group has typically had pretty good saves due to multiclassing and Craft Wondrous Item.

But, yes, we've had to burn Heal spells to remove blindness, and other inconveniences. Curses were a problem until we got Song of Freedom. That's part of the fun in my opinion -- we don't have the perfect tools for every job, but we muddle through.

I think in our case, with experienced gamers, we enjoy not being locked into roles. The druid and the bard probably have the most options, but all of the PCs have found innovative ways to contribute beyond their normal roles. My druid can be a tank (wildshape), leader (buff spells and healing), striker (direct damage spells), or controller (summons and walls). I really enjoy that flexibility. The bard is pretty similar. And we don't mind sitting back while one person gets to shine -- we all had a great time watching the arcane trickster pull off a body-hopping infiltration-slaughterfest with Magic Jar.

 

[MerricB]

Yeah, you can do it if your group enjoys that sort of game, but I'm running an undead-heavy campaign at present (so, in particular, ability drain), and clerics are *meant* to be rare in the setting, so no Restoration.

And it's an utter pain that the Druid doesn't have it.

Ability damage is survivable by a party; but drain isn't, because it doesn't come back.

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

Permanent ability drain normally has a save, right?

It varies a bit. If you run into some later (MM3+) monsters, the saves can be very high as well. DC 24 isn't that easy, even with multiclassing.

Cheers!

 

[Rechan]

I hate the fact that if I want to play a ranger, or a monk, or a binder, or yes, even a bard, that I have to make sure that all the "normal" bases are covered in the party first, because my class isn't good at the basic functions that every party needs.

AWESOME.

But what's funny is that it doesn't matter the designers are trying to make Every Class Matter, people are still going to complain that "Roles mean we'll be pigeonholed". 3e is pigeonholed - you need the Fighter/Cleric/Rogue/Wizard, or it's going to hurt.

I started running a game with an Artificer, Rogue/wizard and Warlock. They were ambushed by an imp, someone got stung, and had to go hunt down a cleric because the Warlock was out of commission without that Dex. Later a Cleric playing Tank and a Psion joined the party, but it's just funny how badly they need a fighter type. It's a good thing I'm running an investigative game where they're not going to run into something Really Big and Nasty, but still.

However, what's real important is that they manage 4e so if you're missing someone in that role that you can still function.

 

[Irda Ranger]

But what's funny is that it doesn't matter the designers are trying to make Every Class Matter, people are still going to complain that "Roles mean we'll be pigeonholed". 3e is pigeonholed - you need the Fighter/Cleric/Rogue/Wizard, or it's going to hurt.

Yeah, but I think the new paradigm is "every Role matters."

I started running a game with an Artificer, Rogue/wizard and Warlock. They were ambushed by an imp, someone got stung, and had to go hunt down a cleric because the Warlock was out of commission without that Dex. Later a Cleric playing Tank and a Psion joined the party, but it's just funny how badly they need a fighter type. It's a good thing I'm running an investigative game where they're not going to run into something Really Big and Nasty, but still.

I'm pretty sure 4e won't solve your problems then. The only two Tanks in the 4e PHB are the Fighter and Paladin, so you're sill out of luck. The Cleric won't be able to be a Tank stand-in any more either, if I read Andy above correctly.

However, what's real important is that they manage 4e so if you're missing someone in that role that you can still function.

Actually, I'm pretty sure 4e will NOT allow you to function minus someone in a particular role. Andy was ranting against the Cleric's ability to plat at Tank, which suggest that the new Cleric is a pure "Leader" (whatever that means).

I think I'd prefer 4e when the route of Acana Evolved, and spread the ability to "stand in" for various roles around a little more. Half the classes in that game had some healing for instance, so there was no "Cleric dependency." Every class was unique and cool, but they were also all disposable. I think 4e is still gonna have the problem where someone's gonna have to play the Leader/Tank/Controller/Striker (whatever).

 

[Gort]

I do like that they're examining the cleric. They're quite poorly designed at the moment. On the one hand (once he hits level 9) he's a platemailed badass with good saves, decent hitpoints and he can throw blasting spells that rival the wizard. He's awesome! Quite overpowered, one might say.

On the other hand, he never gets to do any of that stuff because the fighter has 200 HP and gets hit for 120 HP a round, so all the cleric can do is hit him with Heal spells over and over and over.

I hope they tone down how much damage everything does somewhat, and then tone down the healing to match. I'd far rather people getting worn down over time than their hitpoints yo-yo-ing from 100% to 20% every round.

Hopefully the druid gets looked at as well. Their animal summons are amazingly good, and again they rival the wizard in blasting power, without being nearly as fragile as him.

 

[Imp]

My black hatred of "required roles" knows no bounds.

If you want to run a campaign of thieves running heists; swordsmen on the warpath; arcane casters discovering the secrets of the world – do so! You... just... play... to their strengths.

Maybe careful underlining of what threats are best handled by what roles is the only thing that can really help this issue.

 

[wedgeski]

Maybe careful underlining of what threats are best handled by what roles is the only thing that can really help this issue.

I've DM'd unorthodox parties and encouraged my players *not* to think in terms of what roles need to be filled, but it makes a helluva lot of work for me. Most encounters in the published adventures I run need to be retooled, sometimes overhauled completely. If 4e eases that burden, I will celebrate it, but I don't think it's ever going to go away completely. The game design simply has to decide what side of the fence it's on: specialised roles, or hybrid roles. The middle ground is incredibly hard to get right.

 

[hong]

Yeah, but I think the new paradigm is "every Role matters."

Wasn't there a direct dev quote earlier that a party will still be functional if not every role is filled, but life will be easier if they are filled? That would be very different to "every role matters".

 

[S'mon]

Sounds good.

I hope they tone down how much damage everything does somewhat, and then tone down the healing to match. I'd far rather people getting worn down over time than their hitpoints yo-yo-ing from 100% to 20% every round.

Yup - hp should be an ablative resource for the PCs, not something that needs constant refreshing.