Power retraining question

[Dannyalcatraz]

With normal retraining, I know you cannot retrain powers that are class features or are derived from paragon paths or epic destinies. I assume the same applies to level-based power retraining.

However, is there a rule that covers powers derived from feats?

The primary example would be powers gained from multiclass feats: those that grant a power usually state what level power (1st). However, could you retrain that power for one of a higher level (within that class) via standard or level-based retraining?

 

[mneme]

As a general case, you can't retrain powers for something that you couldn't get with the slot if you got it now. So ixnay on the etrainingway owerspay that you got from a feat that granted you a level 1 power.

Actually, the rules are even stricter -- you can't ever retrain a power for a higher level power, only a lower level one. In practice, I think most GMs let this pass.

Re the level based training, again, you can only retrain stuff in your power framework with this.

You can retrain a 1st power from, say, the Wizard multiclass for a different 1st level power.

And you can retrain the power you got from the Skill Power feat for a higher level skill power that it would now qualify you for.

 

[Ferghis]

The primary example would be powers gained from multiclass feats: those that grant a power usually state what level power (1st). However, could you retrain that power for one of a higher level (within that class) via standard or level-based retraining?

Retraining a feat to the same feat with a different effect is certainly allowed (arcane familiar, for example). Retraining a power to another power you could have chosen when you originally the power is also kosher. But if a feat simply says you get power X from class Y, you can't retrain that power for another of class Y.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'm thinking mainly of feats that say "pick a power" from class Y without specifying which power.

The main reason I ask is I'm trying to determine the limits of what multiclassing in 4Ed really are, but know there are other feats that grant powers, so I wanted to ask the question in a general form.

 

[Ferghis]

I'm thinking mainly of feats that say "pick a power" from class Y without specifying which power.

Are you referring to the PHB Novice, Adept, and Acolyte Power feats? The ones that say "You can swap one X power you know for one X power of the same level or lower from the class you multiclassed into." Yes, those can be retrained to swap higher level powers. The retraining removes the old multiclassed power, recovers the old power of the "main class" originally swapped out, then you pick a new power "main class" to swap out, and then you finally select a new power to acquire from the class you multiclassed into. This counts as retraining just like retraining arcane familiar from heroic to paragon to get a paragon familiar. I think there is a genuine to god example of this somewhere in the books, but I'll be damned if I can remember where, and there's a fair chance I may be imagining this example.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The power swap feats let you swap a power from your old class for one from your new one.

I'm asking what are the limits of retraining powers within your new class. IOW, you multiclass and gain a new class & power. As you advance in levels, you're expected to swap lower-level powers for higher level ones.

Now, it is utterly clear that you can swap out low level powers for higher level ones in your primary class as you advance. If your PC is multiclassed, he is considered to be a member of tht new class for most purposes- he can even qualify for paragon paths and epic destinies in most cases- but can he swap out lower level powers for higher level ones like in his primary class?

 

[Ryujin]

Interesting thought. I don't think that there's any canon on it. If you have to swap out a power that you have already swapped from a multi-class feat, then I would have no trouble with a player swapping it for a higher level power from the off class. I would, however, call it your retraining for the level; swap the power for a higher level power, within the first class, then swap it out for the off class's power.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The power swap feats let you swap a power from your old class for one from your new one.

I'm asking what are the limits of retraining powers within your new class. IOW, you multiclass and gain a new class & power. As you advance in levels, you're expected to swap lower-level powers for higher level ones.

Now, it is utterly clear that you can swap out low level powers for higher level ones in your primary class as you advance. If your PC is multiclassed, he is considered to be a member of tht new class for most purposes- he can even qualify for paragon paths and epic destinies in most cases- but can he swap out lower level powers for higher level ones like in his primary class?

Yes, but the logic for why the rules allow this by RAW is rather convolved (though WotC seems to consider it to be perfectly valid)-

Instead of retraining the POWER itself, which there's no real rule for, you retrain the FEAT to the same feat, and then follow the rules for what you do when you get that feat, which effectively lets you pick a power that is of a level you can NOW pick.

The rules for 4e chargen FUNDAMENTALLY are such (unless there are errors in the rules somewhere, but in principle) that if you make a level 10 character and you make a level 1 character and you level it up incrementally to level 10 that the result will be exactly the same. Anything you can simply do at level 10 whole cloth will always produce a character that would potentially be legal (though maybe not playable) at all levels up to that level. There are ways to interpret some rules that would violate this, but it is pretty clearly the goal. It makes bookkeeping (especially for the character builder) vastly simpler. This is also probably one reason there is nothing that ever requires a roll of a die to determine what goes on your sheet, because again these things tend to result in weird level inconsistencies (like hit points, which in AD&D are actually a pain because you MUST calculate them level-by-level for MC characters, I know, I wrote a character builder for 1e back in the day).

So you are pretty much safe going with "If I could make a level 30 PC like this, then I could level one up to 30 and get the same thing" and that will be the correct and official rules interpretation.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Instead of retraining the POWER itself, which there's no real rule for, you retrain the FEAT to the same feat, and then follow the rules for what you do when you get that feat, which effectively lets you pick a power that is of a level you can NOW pick.

It's not quite the same as what I'm asking.

Regardless of which level you take a MC Feat at, it will tell you to take a 1st level power (if it is a feat that grants a power).

I'm asking if- after taking a feat-granting MC power at lower levels- could you then retrain that power to one of higher level as part of your leveling up process? IOW, if, when the PHB's progression chart tells you to swap a power of lower level for one of the same kind for one of higher level, are you limited to doing so ONLY with your main class's powers, or may you swap that 1st level power in your dabbler class for a higher level power in your dabbler class?

 

[Ferghis]

I'm asking what are the limits of retraining powers within your new class. IOW, you multiclass and gain a new class & power. As you advance in levels, you're expected to swap lower-level powers for higher level ones.

... can he swap out lower level powers for higher level ones like in his primary class?

You're probably going to have to state your question a fourth or fifth time, but my inclination is that while you might squeak by on a hyper-technical reading of the rules, no sane DM is going to allow this unless you are paragon multiclassing, which might garner enough pity that a DM might allow you to achieve (if I've understood your gist) swapping a lower level main class power for a higher level multiclassed power.

For everyone's benefit (I'm curious to see your actual build goal) I suggest you elaborate in detail what you're thinking of doing. Like, classes, feats, levels, and all that jazz.