Power retraining question

[Ryujin]

You asked. I answered, with what I felt was a reasonable and reasoned response. if you're going to do this anyway, then why ask?

I'm done.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'm not the DM, and I'm probably not going to do this...at least not now.

I'm trying to figure out the rules. While my instinct is that it should not be allowed, I have to have a reason- hopefully a solid, rational reason- why it should not be allowed.

If the reason has flaws- as I believe yours did- I can't use it. It's not personal, it's not obstinacy, it's not munchkinism, it is a desire for the reason I use to be consistent and believable.

To me, an appeal to balancing the PHB3 feat to the PHB1 feats doesn't fly when the PHB1 MC feats are not necessarily balanced with each other.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Double post

 

[nightwyrm]

That, too, may be somewhat of a non-issue: the MC feats make the granted AW power into an Encounter power for the PC who took the feat. Essentially, he burns a feat to gain a few benefits, one of which is an underpowered Encounter power.

I'm just asking if they can upgrade that underpowered Encounter power for a higher-level- but still underpowered- Encounter power.

(Currently sitting in a doctor's office, nowhere near books- no clue as to other classes' AWs and the like- nor whose AWs scale with level, etc.)

The wizard MC feat states that you can take a wizard at-will and use it once per encounter. It doesn't make that at-will into an encounter power nor does it allow you to trade it in for a higher level encounter power (because it's not an encounter power) or for a higher level at-will (there are no higher level at-wills).

Controllers MC feats gives this bonus at-will because they don't have a controller mechanic like mark or extra damage that other MC feats grant once per encounter. That's the fulcrum of balance for these MC feats.

Similarly, your psion MC states that you can take a first level at-will and use it once per encounter without augments. It is completely analogous to the wizard MC. It's just that psions have higher level at-wills.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The wizard MC feat states that you can take a wizard at-will and use it once per encounter. It doesn't make that at-will into an encounter power...

OK, now this is different.

While I really don't agree with the logic here*, I've encountered it in other corners of 4Ed's design. It is, at the very least, internally consistent with other design decisions.

That makes it a rationale I can live with, even though I don't agree with it.







* I'm very much a "walks like a duck"/"distinction without a difference" kind of guy.

 

[nightwyrm]

OK, now this is different.

While I really don't agree with the logic here*, I've encountered it in other corners of 4Ed's design. It is, at the very least, internally consistent with other design decisions.

That makes it a rationale I can live with, even though I don't agree with it.







* I'm very much a "walks like a duck"/"distinction without a difference" kind of guy.

I've seen similar templating distinctions used in Magic. Like the MC feat example here, 95% of the time there's no difference but that 5% of the time when it interacts with some other stuff, the specific wording and classification of the effect become critical to the outcome.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Don't get me started on M:tG- they have used some tortureously twisted logic to justify card rulings. It's one of the reasons I stopped buying the game after 6th.

 

[Khime]

It seems like there's a little cross-traffic here between the two standard mechanics for swapping around powers while you are leveling up: Retraining powers, and Replacing powers.

Retraining allows you to replace a feat, skill, or power once per level. For powers, it says "You can replace a power with another power of the same type (at-will attack power, encounter attack power, daily attack power, or utility power), of the same level or lower, and from the same class" (PHB p28) So you could not use retraining to replace the power you got from MCing into Psion with a higher level Psion power, as it would need to be "of the the same level or lower".

Replacing allows you to, at certain levels, replace lower level powers with higher level ones. However, the text of power replacement for encounter powers says "At 13th, 17th, 23rd, and 27th levels, you can replace any encounter attack power you know from your class with a new one of your new level (or an encounter attack power of a lower level, if you choose)" (PHB p27) While this does allow you to 'upgrade' a lower-level encounter power for a higher level one, it specifies "power you know from your class". And taking a class-specific multiclass feat only allows you to count as a member of that new class for the purpose of meeting prerequisites for taking other feats and qualifying for paragon paths; it doesn't make that new class "your class" for power replacing. So this also does not allow upgrading of the power acquired from the Psion MC feat.