Power Ups and How they Effect the Game

[jodyjohnson]

I like to play powerful characters and like to DM for the same.

Our campaigns usually start with 32 point buy, and often include numerous house rules which add to character power (gestalt, bonus feats, 1:1 cross-class skills, character wealth > chart value, class defense bonus, etc.)

Generally an Encounter needs to be +2 EL for a moderate challenge and closer to +4 EL to be a serious challenge.

More and more I'm less sure of the benefits for this.

Other than the obviously higher experience rewards and treasure amounts from CR+2 and higher encounters, I've noticed a few trends.

1. Conjuration summoning is relatively weaker since the gap between summoned creature(s) and the challenge is greater.

2. Mounts, familiars, and animal companions tend to fall behind the curve for the same reason.

3. Direct Damage spells: Although spell DCs are better with higher stats, the damage is lower by percentage against the higher CR opponents and their saves are higher as well (usually higher CR=higher HD).

4. Effect-based magic leans even more so towards specialization (Focus, Gtr. Focus, skill synergies, Save Category vs. Creature Type, etc.). Flexibility gets sacrificed for effectiveness. Casters tend towards being one-trick ponies.

What other effects do DMs/players see playing characters in excess of the baseline.

 

[GlassJaw]

What other effects do DMs/players see playing characters in excess of the baseline.

Well the first thing I think I would mention about a game like this is you have to make sure everyone is on the same page. If you have some "casual" gamers at the table, they are going to be quickly left in the dust by those more experienced in character building. They'll also need to "get the books" to keep up with the Joneses.

Also, since power level is relative to the encounter level, why the need to have a "powerful" character? What about lowering the power level of everything uniformly? You said yourself that the the DM has to increase the EL's substantially in order for it to pose any sort of challenge.

 

[Mokona]

The kind of powerup you looking for might be easier in another way. Instead of throwing all the game defined power balances and systems interlocking out the window try a simpler method.

Make the base level for every adult creature 5. Ie all adult peasants are 5th level commoners. All player characters are 5th level when the game begins (or 4th level if you want them to start as young heros). All monsters with 5 or more HD don't change and all monsters with less than 5 HD get advanced to 5 HD or get enough class levels to bring them up to 5 HD/level total.

This way the power level of the game is ramped up but all the rules already support the equipment, monsters, spells, and balance of the new "baseline".

Characters have more abilities. Players have more options for their characters by virtue of having more levels and abilities to design their concept. Fights are more challenging in terms of game play but easily balanced in terms of character success/difficulty/death.

Much less DM fiat is needed in a 5th level replaces 1st level system. The only area where the DM needs to make a decision outside the rules is treasure/gear for the masses of humanity that just exist to populate the world but don't exist as a challenge for the players to kill/loot/overcome.

This should be a much easier way to use the rules as written and still have an exciting game based on the guidelines you mentioned.

 

[jodyjohnson]

Also, since power level is relative to the encounter level, why the need to have a "powerful" character? What about lowering the power level of everything uniformly? You said yourself that the the DM has to increase the EL's substantially in order for it to pose any sort of challenge.

I've tried to bring our latest campaigns back down to the baseline but meet player resistance each time.

Basically looking for more points on how a high powered game is not the same as a baseline game just turned up to "11". I won't lower the power uniformly because the game mechanics do not scale uniformly as player power increases (without increasing level/HD).

A few more examples,
- SR on characters becomes less relevant, and opponent SR more relevant (to the point of players avoiding spells that allow SR - SR generally is ~CR+10).

- Holy Word by players becomes less effective, Blasphemy by opponents more effective.

- Turning is less useful.

 

[jodyjohnson]

Make the base level for every adult creature 5. Ie all adult peasants are 5th level commoners. All player characters are 5th level when the game begins (or 4th level if you want them to start as young heros). All monsters with 5 or more HD don't change and all monsters with less than 5 HD get advanced to 5 HD or get enough class levels to bring them up to 5 HD/level total.

This is exactly the kind of power up that I don't want. Relatively speaking it makes the characters (and magic) less heroic and magic much less effective.

In a baseline campaign a fireball is devastating to commoners. In the 5th+ version, only the lowest HP commoners would drop and probably not even die on a failed save.

My point for my players is that character power ups actually make the characters less heroic because CRs just increase to continue the challenge. Proportionally the gain by the power-up does not match increase in abilities from higher CR.

The numbers get bigger but they mean less.

 

[Henry]

Are you looking for arguments from us that you can use on your players to help you convince them to go back towards baseline?

The best argument is made by you, since you know them and you know that their style is, and what will work on them for convincing. It could be that this is just the play style they want, after having tried it lower power. The best convincing is to get them to try it the other way in a single one-shot or a "limited series" of one shots, and see what they think. Try to make the one-shots appealing as possible, and see if they realize that it can be fun to struggle a little now and again. Ask them for a compromise - maybe someone else runs the high-powered game, and you get to run a lower-powered game once or twice a month.

Maybe there's another d20 game (like mutants and masterminds) that can fit the play style they want better.

If they just want big bangs and fun, then there's little you can do, other than find another group or grin and bear it. But if it's no fun for you to run the session anymore, you shouldn't have to.

 

[Psion]

Not on topic, but is the fact that the title of the thread uses "effect" as a verb bugging the snot out of anyone but me?

 

[Arnwyn]

Not on topic, but is the fact that the title of the thread uses "effect" as a verb bugging the snot out of anyone but me?

No, because it's the internet. If I got bugged out of every grammatical and spelling mistake I saw, my head would have long since exploded.

Back on topic, I like the points that the original poster makes. Might be a good way to show that characters "more powerful than the norm" are just hurting themselves in the end. *shrug*

 

[Nifft]

Not on topic, but is the fact that the title of the thread uses "effect" as a verb bugging the snot out of anyone but me?

I'm a pedant regarding that, too.

Especially in a forum about a game that makes frequent use of "mind-affecting effects", there's really no excuse for not knowing the difference.

-- N, a 5th-level commoner with the "Snark" PrC

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Not on topic, but is the fact that the title of the thread uses "effect" as a verb bugging the snot out of anyone but me?

Not at all. He's obviously talking about how power-ups create a new game, different from baseline.

1. To bring into existence.
2. To produce as a result.
3. To bring about.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=effect