Powerful build...

[Gneeker]

Looking for a few thoughts/opinions on Powerful Build (Races of Stone, a Goliath racial trait) as it applies to taking feats that require size Large.

The description of Powerful Build does not specifically state that it applies to feats, nor does it specifically say that it does not.

 

[Vigwyn the Unruly]

Looking for a few thoughts/opinions on Powerful Build (Races of Stone, a Goliath racial trait) as it applies to taking feats that require size Large.

The description of Powerful Build does not specifically state that it applies to feats, nor does it specifically say that it does not.

If I recall correctly, the text says nothing about it making you large size. Therefore, it does not, and you cannot take feats that require you to be large size.

Just my opinion.

 

[Sejs]

Powerful Build does not let you qualify for feats, etc that require you to be size Large.

Powerful Build expressly states what it does do. It does exactly that and nothing more. A summary might say 'it's like you're Large, sorta, but not really', but that would be inaccurate.

Powerful Build applies to the following: size modifiers on opposed checks, such as grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts if the modifier would be adventageous to the goliath. They're considdered one size larger when determining if a creature's special attack can affect them based on their size, such as improved grab or swallow whole. They can use weapons designed for a creature one size category larger than they are without penalty.

That's it - that's the whole ball of wax.

It doesn't let you qualify for Large and up feats because you are not, in fact, Large.

 

[Gneeker]

Actually, I think I found my answer, however it conflicts with everything said so far.

Races of Stone, Pg 139, under the feat Fling Ally:

Prerequisites: Str 19, Rock Hurling or racial ability to throw rocks, size Large or larger (goliaths qualify by virtue of their powerful build racial trait).

Actually, looking at a few more feats as I type this, it says that they quialify under all the feats listed with a prerequisite of size Large.

 

[shilsen]

Actually, I think I found my answer, however it conflicts with everything said so far.

Races of Stone, Pg 139, under the feat Fling Ally:

Prerequisites: Str 19, Rock Hurling or racial ability to throw rocks, size Large or larger (goliaths qualify by virtue of their powerful build racial trait).

Actually, looking at a few more feats as I type this, it says that they quialify under all the feats listed with a prerequisite of size Large.

One could argue that the fact that they specifically list them as qualifying for these feats, rather than simply saying "Powerful Build lets you count as large size for feat prerequisites" supports the idea that it applies only to those feats that explicitly it.

 

[Gneeker]

True enough, but it does not strike me as a strong argument, seeing as the parenthesized text is in response to the size Large requirement and not the feat.

 

[Cam Banks]

True enough, but it does not strike me as a strong argument, seeing as the parenthesized text is in response to the size Large requirement and not the feat.

I would be inclined to let them take feats with Large as a requirement, as the Powerful Build ability does state that when it's beneficial to you to be Large, etc. It's possible that those feats specifically state PB because they are exceptions, but then it's also possible they state PB because other feats like them before PB was introduced would have done the same had PB existed at the time.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Sir Brennen]

For everyone's reference, here's the description of Powerful Build from the SRD, under the Psionic -> Races -> Half-giant section:

Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger.
Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.
A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.

It doesn't say you are considered Large for any other purposes, including feats; it pretty specifically states when it applies. But then, the precident was set in the RoS feat descriptions to use it otherwise, but it is explicitly stated there.

Mainly, I think it's a judgement call on when feats with the "size: Large+" prereq apply. Those in RoS which specifically say they apply to Goliaths, fine. (Are there any in RoS with Large as a prereq that Goliaths aren't specifically mentioned as qualifying for? My guess is not.)

Other feats, especially those that predate the Powerful Build racial ability, need to be looked at on a case-by-case basis. Personally, I would not allow Large-and-in-Charge, for example, mainly because Powerful Build doesn't grant the neccessary reach. Awesome Blow (monster feat in SRD), however, I don't have a problem with, provided the character meets the other prereq's (25+ STR, for one.)

(I use a race with Powerful Build for my homebrew - check sig for link.)

 

[Beckett]

I would be inclined to let them take feats with Large as a requirement, as the Powerful Build ability does state that when it's beneficial to you to be Large, etc. It's possible that those feats specifically state PB because they are exceptions, but then it's also possible they state PB because other feats like them before PB was introduced would have done the same had PB existed at the time.

Cheers,
Cam

But if Powerful Build lets you qualify for all feats that require large size, wouldn't it state that in the description, rather than calling that out in each feat?

I think the Powerful Build is pretty clear on what ways the ability allows you to be considered large. The feats in RoS that need large size or Powerful Build are exceptions, not the rule.

 

[Sir Brennen]

But if Powerful Build lets you qualify for all feats that require large size, wouldn't it state that in the description, rather than calling that out in each feat?

I think the Powerful Build is pretty clear on what ways the ability allows you to be considered large. The feats in RoS that need large size or Powerful Build are exceptions, not the rule.

Some such feats pre-date the Powerful Build concept, or don't assume everyone has access to the other books it is presented in (RoS an XPH), so I don't think that's a valid criteria.

Your second point I think is valid, however.