Powers dropping out...

[Fanaelialae]

Got it, thanks.

So as a way of translation, if you got the Magic Missile or Swing Wildly power at level 1, later on you'd lose them?

The way it works in 4e is that you eventually replace low level powers with higher level ones. For example, you might replace your low-level Fireball with a high-level Firestorm or Disintegrate spell, once you reach the appropriate level. You technically don't have to but, because higher level powers tend to be better, it makes good sense to do so.

I don't think that that's what the designers were saying about 5e though. My read is that you'll be able to trade in (just for example) two or three 1st level spell slots for one 2nd level spell slot. So you could either have numerous low level slots and less high level slots, or trade the low level slots in and have more high level slots.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

I don't think that that's what the designers were saying about 5e though. My read is that you'll be able to trade in (just for example) two or three 1st level spell slots for one 2nd level spell slot. So you could either have numerous low level slots and less high level slots, or trade the low level slots in and have more high level slots.

That's my impression as well. The original quote:

Q: With the Vancian magic system you could get to the point where wizards had a great number of spells per day. How are you balancing that and gauging encounter design with that in mind?

Monte: Addressing the idea that high level play you'll end up with lots of options and more abilities, we are definitely looking at the direction we're taking high level play. The idea we're looking at is cashing in a lot of your low level abilities or spells and kind of trade them in for one interesting higher level ability. And for managing how you those resources work throughout a day and looking at encounters, and keeping that trading-in mechanic in mind, we can look at average encounters a day, how long an average encounter will last, the resources an average character/player will go through and balance that that way.

I could see how this would be seen as permanent power swapping, but in a Vancian system it seems more natural to be talking about swapping prepared spells and abilities. I suppose we'll see, but I'm sure that if the first public playtests show permanent ability swapping, there will be an outcry.

 

[Dausuul]

I could see how this would be seen as permanent power swapping, but in a Vancian system it seems more natural to be talking about swapping prepared spells and abilities. I suppose we'll see, but I'm sure that if the first public playtests show permanent ability swapping, there will be an outcry.

Ah, that would make sense. So instead of "unlearning" one power to learn another, it'd be a decision you make at time of use. E.g., you know magic missile and fireball; in a given day, you can either use fireball once or magic missile three times. In this sense, you're "swapping" three first-level spells for one third-level one.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Ah, that would make sense. So instead of "unlearning" one power to learn another, it'd be a decision you make at time of use. E.g., you know a low-level power and a high-level power; in a given encounter, you can use the high-level power once or the low-level power three times.

That would be almost a straight lift from Arcana Evolved. The only "problem" with the AE system was that it was a bit complex to manage and sharply contstrained on power--in return for maximum flexibility.

I could see an in-between system where you can swap at "preparation" time, but from there on play as a standard D&D spell slot wizard. This kind of harks back to the source material, where Turjan could impose on his mind as many as 4 of the more powerful spells or 6 of the lesser ones. It's spell points at prep time, spell slots thereafter.

Not saying that it was they meant, but I could see that working as a way for people to go simple or complex as they preferred.

 

[Oni]

I quite disliked 4E's way of having to drop out previously known powers if you wanted to take level appropriate ones, especially when there was nothing with a similar flavor available, since you basically ended up altering your character in a very fundamental way if you wanted to stay functional.

That said, I suspect that approach was unpopular and isn't likely to be repeated. Anyway, I don't see any sense in getting my dander up until we actually see how it's implemented, and even then I'll give a whirl with my group and then send in my feedback, that's what a playtest is for after all.

 

[Fanaelialae]

That would be almost a straight lift from Arcana Evolved. The only "problem" with the AE system was that it was a bit complex to manage and sharply contstrained on power--in return for maximum flexibility.

I could see an in-between system where you can swap at "preparation" time, but from there on play as a standard D&D spell slot wizard. This kind of harks back to the source material, where Turjan could impose on his mind as many as 4 of the more powerful spells or 6 of the lesser ones. It's spell points at prep time, spell slots thereafter.

Not saying that it was they meant, but I could see that working as a way for people to go simple or complex as they preferred.

I think that's how it'll work, except that in order to simplify the complexity, you'll choose to swap slots when leveling (rather than during spell preparation).

So, to borrow your example, when Turjan levels up he'll be able to choose between casting 4 powerful or 6 less powerful spells, but he can't change that during preparation the next day. That's just a guess, of course.

 

[mkill]

It's way too early to make any useful comment on this. It's pure speculation until a more complete rules draft arrives.

All I can say is that PC options should remain easy to handle at higher levels. I've played games where players need 8-9 pages for their characters, and it's annoying. Human brains get confused if they need to choose between more than 8 or 9 options at once (analysis paralysis). Classes can have more abilities, but then they should be clearly labeled between attack, support / healing, exploration and social interaction.

The obvious way to avoid this is to build upgrade options into spells and other abilities. A magic missile by a 20th-level Wizard should be much more impressive than one by a 1st-level Wizard. It shouldn't just do more damage, but have some upgrades built in like shocking the enemy, throwing him backwards or preventing spellcasting for a round. What you don't need is both low-power and upgraded Magic Missile at once.

 

[TerraDave]

Towards the end of my 3.5 campaign, the cleric was loaned the Mace of Saint Cuthbert, which (in my game, obviously) allowed him to swap spell slots for some combat and other abilities.

Worked well, and the character could still do (too) many things.

 

[Gort]

Because we've got quite a lot of misinformation and people saying stuff like, "I don't know the specifics, but I know I don't like it!" in this thread, I guess I'll clear up how this actually worked in 4e.

You have 3 classes of power: At-will, encounter, daily.

At level 1, you pick your at-will powers - two if you're not human, three if you are. These stay with you for the entire game - they include low-powered spells like magic missile and low-powered manoeuvres like tide of iron which is a standard attack which knocks the opponent back 5 feet. Your at-wills do an extra dice of damage when you hit level 21, which helps them stay useful later on. At wills are generally great because it means your wizard never "runs out of magic" and pulls out a crossbow like in previous editions.

You also get one encounter power - this is an attack with a bit more oomph, like a sweep that hits everyone around you, or burning hands. Encounter powers are good because you can blow them whenever you're in a good situation and not worry about not having them if there's a tough fight later.

Finally, you get a daily power - something with a real kick. A wizard might take sleep which is one of the best early powers because it might knock out an entire patrol of goblins if they roll badly, letting the other party members coup-de-grace them. On the other hand, a fighter might take comeback strike giving himself the opportunity to grit his teeth and regain some hitpoints, or brute strike which is a triple-damage attack.

Many classes also get extra powers - most "leader" classes, into which the "healer" archetype is folded, also get two uses per encounter of some kind of healing power, like the cleric's healing word. These are always "minor" actions, which mean that you can actually take a non-healing action like an attack in the same round, which is great because it means even if you're keeping the party alive, you're still allowed to get into the fight yourself.

Many races also come with an encounter power - like the elven reroll of one attack per combat, or the tiefling ability to shoot hellfire at those who harmed them.

TL;DR - You have a minimum of four powers at first level, and many characters will have more.

Now, as you level up, you gain access to another type of power, which is the "utility" power. This is normally a power which doesn't do damage - it might be cure light wounds or shield or unbreakable (a fighter power that lets you resist some of the damage of an attack), but is useful anyway. These can be either daily, encounter or (rarely) at-will.

You will also gain new encounter and daily attack powers - up to a total of three encounter powers and three daily powers. You'll also have three utility powers as well.

TL;DR - By level 10 you have a minimum of eleven powers to pick from - two at-will, three encounter, three dailies, and three utility powers which might be at-will, encounter or daily.

Now, there are two other ways to outright gain powers - your paragon path (which is like the 3e prestige class which is like the 2e kits) at level 11 and your epic destiny (which is like a second prestige class you get at level 21). These, and your other 20 levels will between them give you another encounter and daily, and four more utility powers, for a total of at least 17 powers to pick from by level 26.

TL;DR - You end up with a minimum of 17 powers ready to pick from at level 26.

Now, your powers don't stay static throughout the game. Starting at level 13 you begin to replace earlier powers, one at a time, with higher-level ones. Some are different, while others are upgrades of previous ones - so a fighter might drop brute strike, which is 3D10 + whatever damage, for no mercy, which is 7D10 + whatever damage. Of course, he might opt for something completely different instead - there's no pressure to take the upgrade or something else, it's up to the player.

TL;DR - Powers slowly upgrade or get replaced by better ones - this happens to a minimum total of eight powers throughout the life of a character - you can do more if you like

There might well be players who think a mere 17 options open to a character at one time before even considering what might be in the area the character is in (there's a whole section in the DMG for providing environmental options for characters to exploit) is a bit limited, so there are also rituals. Gained by taking the ritual caster feat - which some classes get for free - these can be learned without limit by any character who can acquire the scrolls or books they're written on. They're often tied to skills like Arcana and Religion and Nature and Heal, which determine their efficacy. They are out-of-combat magic, however - they take between a minute and days to cast. This is great because it means that your party has a lot of options, but it's harder for them to use those options to break adventures - if a dragon swoops on your party, they can't just cast teleport and be thousands of miles away in six seconds - they'll have to fight the dragon off, and do some chanting and spellcasting for some minutes, and then be thousands of miles away.

TL;DR - There are lots of rituals and they can be learned by any character who wants to expend a feat, but they do take a bit of time to cast

Finally, many magic items grant powers. A high level adventurer in 4e might be wearing upwards of ten magic items, and if he chooses to do so, he might choose ten items that also grant him powers.

Final TL;DR - High level characters in 4e have access to TONS of options, starting with their 17 basic powers, and adding on any extra ones they can have through races, rituals, and magic items. They never have to upgrade or replace a power, though they have the opportunity to do this a minimum of eight times, starting at level 13.

Replacing powers is always optional, and is really a drop in the bucket compared to the number of options 4e characters have.

 

[Stalker0]

EDIT: nvm, looks like this idea was already thought of earlier in the thread.