PrC’s, one at a time or for dipping?

Caliban said:
My Dwarven Fighter4/Monk2/Exotic Weapon Master1/Pious Templar1/Dwarven Defender 10 begs to differ. :)

Now, as someone with experience, would you say that your build is overpowered when compared to other builds that would utilize only one or no prestige class?

Better at some things, sure, specialized...but is it overpowered or unbalanced in comparison?
 

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Mistwell said:
As for why is it different than base classes, it's because PRCs represent organizations that you join and work for, and a role playing element that is distinct from the general classes.

Not always. Some PrCs represent concepts that aren't necessarily group-driven, either master-apprentice concepts or just general "you figured it out" concepts. I really don't think that the BBEG ur-priest belongs to the Grand Guild o' Ur-Priests.

Heck, you don't even need different organizations for prestige classes; for some, it's perfectly possible that a (say) wizard in the Imperial War Wizards of Cormyr could have levels in War Wizard, Spellsword, and Archmage.

Brad
 
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werk said:
Now, as someone with experience, would you say that your build is overpowered when compared to other builds that would utilize only one or no prestige class?

Better at some things, sure, specialized...but is it overpowered or unbalanced in comparison?

It depends on the prestige class. Some are more suited for combat than others.

In my case, I was going for an overall concept - the iconic dwarven fighter who can stand against almost any foe, the wall that the enemy breaks on. Facing the realities of high level D&D combat, this means having effective defenses against magic, invisible foes, and area effects, high AC, high hit points, and a variety of combat options depending on the situation.

What he gave up to achieve this is was the high end of his damage output and attack bonus. For an 18th level tank, his strength is about 4-6 points lower, and his BAB is one lower. It doesn't matter as much at 18th level, but I certainly noticed the lack at lower levels.

His strength is lower than normal because he was built with 28 point buy, and his starting strength was 14, so that I could buy up his Dex and Int to support Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise. His current strength is 24 (+4 from levels, +6 from belt of giant strength) and generally maxes at 28 (+2 from Enlarge Person, +2 from Defensive Stance)

4 levels of fighter gave him feats and weapon specialization.
2 levels of monk gave him +3 on all saves, Evasion, and improved grapple
1 level of Exotic Weapon master allows him to apply double his str bonus to when wielding his +1 Holy Cold Iron Dwarven Waraxe two-handed. (Thus counteracting his lower than normal strength)
1 level of Pious Templar (of Gendwar Argrim dwarven hero god with the dwarven axe as his chosen weapon) gives him Mettle and the ability to use healing wands
10 levels of Dwarven Defender gives him unnamed AC bonuses, good Will and Fort saves, Defensive Stance, Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge, DR 6/-, and Spot as a class skill.

At 18th level he has some pretty good gear: +5 mithril breastplate, +3 animated shield, +6 Dex gloves, +6 Strength belt, +4 Con amulet, helmet that gives +2 sacred bonus to AC, +1 insight to AC from Ioun stone, a couple of Holy dwarven axes (cold iron and adamantine), +5 cloak of Resistance, +4 ring of Protection, and various other goodies.

His standing AC is 40, his standing touch AC is 25, he can use various tricks to get into the mid-to-high 50's.

His lowest save is +17, his highest is +25, if he makes a save against any spell he takes no effect (i.e. he shrugs off harms, disintegrates, horrid wiltings, fireballs, cones of cold, chain lightnings, blade barriers).

He almost never loses his Dex bonus to AC, and is hard to flank.

If he has trouble hitting you, he can try grappling with a good chance of success (he's grappled large and huge dragons a few times.) In many combats his most effective tactic was to grapple the enemy rogue or barbarian so that the rogue in his party could go off on them.

He's just very hard to kill, but will not outdamage an equivalent level barbarian or straight fighter (or even rogue) that is optimized for damage. He also had to take some sub-optimal feats for a front-line tank: Dodge, Toughness, True Believer.

This was my main character in the Living Greyhawk campaign for 5 years. He's pretty much retired now, although they have released some high level adventures that I can play him in if I get a group together and find a DM.
 
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Nifft said:
So long as the PrCs are well-designed (making you pay up front), I don't see any problem allowing PCs to dip in whatever they want. Spellcasting PrCs are notably not balanced up front, though. :(
No casting based PRC should have full casting progresion without some other major 'effects whatever you will be casting" drawback.
 

frankthedm said:
No casting based PRC should have full casting progresion without some other major 'effects whatever you will be casting" drawback.

Hi Frank, why do you think that? The wiz who takes one level of a PrC loses his final bonus feat....that's a drawback to start.

Thanks,
Rich
 

hong said:
I don't think I've ever seen a PC with more than one prestige class. And this is with a group that includes at least 2 hardcore powergamers. The "cherrypick abilities from PrCs" thing doesn't happen in practice.

to answer the question, Hong pretty much sums up my experience with it as well.

---Rusty
 

rgard said:
Hi Frank, why do you think that? The wiz who takes one level of a PrC loses his final bonus feat....that's a drawback to start.

Thanks,
Rich

Drawback or equalizer?


I think Frank's saying that's a good thing and you're saying it's a bad thing. I tend to agree with Frank.

Why would anyone want a level of a PrC to provide everything the regular class level provides PLUS extra stuff? That's not balance. There needs to be a trade, lose something, gain something, that's how it's supposed to work.

"...They can strengthen a character's role whitin the party, or his utility in an unusualy situation. A prestige class can demonstrate a narrowly focused expertise or an unusual combination of abilities."

That doesn't sound like "same as base class, plus extra kewl stuff" to me.
 

werk said:
"...They can strengthen a character's role whitin the party, or his utility in an unusualy situation. A prestige class can demonstrate a narrowly focused expertise or an unusual combination of abilities."

That doesn't sound like "same as base class, plus extra kewl stuff" to me.
...unless you are the author of a WotC splatbook or campaign supplement. Then it definitely sounds like it.
 


werk said:
Drawback or equalizer?


I think Frank's saying that's a good thing and you're saying it's a bad thing. I tend to agree with Frank.

Why would anyone want a level of a PrC to provide everything the regular class level provides PLUS extra stuff? That's not balance. There needs to be a trade, lose something, gain something, that's how it's supposed to work.

"...They can strengthen a character's role whitin the party, or his utility in an unusualy situation. A prestige class can demonstrate a narrowly focused expertise or an unusual combination of abilities."

That doesn't sound like "same as base class, plus extra kewl stuff" to me.

The first drawback/equalizer is the loss of one wizard bonus feat. Also, as somebody mentioned earlier in the thread, there are usually pre-reqs that distract from a wizard's normal progression. Cross-class skills and class abilities (ones that necessitate dipping into another class) are examples. Given you have to do those in order to get into many of the PrCs, the character has already suffered a drawback/equalizer just to qualify for the PrC.

So given the pre-reqs most PrCs have, I don't feel it necessary to always lose a level of spellcasting in the PrC.

Thanks,
Rich
 

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