PrC w/ +1 level spellcasting - Downside?

[War Golem]

This is a general question about spellcasting Prestige Classes, from a bit of a powergaming slant.

What exactly is an otherwise single-classed cleric or wizard giving up in exchange for a PrC that grants +1 level spellcasting at every level?

For the cleric, Turn/Rebuke Undead ability no longer increases. For the wizard, their familiar (if they even have one) no longer increases in power, and the wizard loses out on a few metamagic bonus feats. Is there anything else that I've overlooking?

To me, this seems like a fairly small sacrifice, especially for the cleric, and even more so if the campaign is one that does not feature undead. I'm not stating that I think this is a bad thing.... it's just making me wonder if there is something I've forgotten?

Thanks.

-War Golem

 

[Stalker0]

Yep, that's about it. You don't lose any more for taking the PrC.

I'm not stating that I think this is a bad thing.... it's just making me wonder if there is something I've forgotten?
-War Golem

Then I'll state it for you. Every choice should have pros and cons, and frankly this one is for many a no brainer. Its wrong imho that a PrC should continue to give you the same amount of spells and extras without some real tradeoff).

 

[Crothian]

YA, they don't give up much. I think +1 level spellcasting is actually very strong, and might be too strong in many classes, but since that is a the sole focus of many characters we will always see these classes.

 

[Spatzimaus]

No, you pretty much got it right. There aren't many downsides at all.
Clerics: turning, and certain domain powers
Druid: wildshaping
Wizards: bonus Feats
Bards: Music, Lore, etc.
(Ignore Rangers and Paladins here)

For Sorcerers and Psions, there are basically NO downsides since they don't get bonus Feats or anything. You lose out on familiar/psicrystal advancement (what a shame.)

There are a few ways they get balanced:
>Some of these classes don't give full spellcasting every level. If a 10-level PrC only gives that "+1 level" on 7 of the levels, there's your drawback.

> Others have steep prerequisites. Loremaster is a good example; you have to take Skill Focus (usually a waste of a feat) in a Knowledge skill AND since that Knowledge skill is probably already at 10+ ranks, not much use. Plus, you're buying 20 ranks of Knowledge skills, which can be painful for classes only getting 2+INT per level.
So, effectively it's costing you one Feat and a bunch of skill points, in exchange for the Loremaster's extra abilities (most of which are fairly minor).

> Class skills/skill points. Psions, Druids, and Bards get 4+INT skill points per level. Some PrCs only give 2+INT. Or, your PrC's skill list might be missing certain skills the core class had (many don't have Craft and Profession, for example)

> HP/BAB/Saves. Not a problem for the Wizard/Sorcerer crowd, but a Cleric who goes Loremaster loses HP.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

This problem is hardly limited to the +1/spell level crowd. There are planty of fighter/rogue oriented prestige classes where what is given up is negligible, and what is gained is fairly large. T&B had some prestige classes that gave up 5 or so levels of spellcasting power. They all had one thing in common on a powergaming level they sucked. What they gained almost univerally weren't worth 2 levels, but they cost 5.

Check out little mister demon skin,(yeah a cool concept) but all the crap he gained could of been duplicated with 50,000 or so in magic items. Yeah I'm going to give up 5 levels of spellcasting power, getting 9th level spells and only gaining my 8th level spells at 20th level for that for that. Now the +1 every level crowd gets too much, mage of the arcane order, gets the cool spell pool, bonus languages, 2 metamagic feats, and i think one or two othe rminor perks. He gives up nothing and gets a lot, great idea. Oh and th cleric ones, yeah like they needed o make the cleric any better than it already was.

They just did a crappy job at balancing the spellcasting prestige classes.(they did a poor job but not quite to the crapy level of balancing other prestige classes) They over-valued anything that gave inherent special abilites, like darkvision, or elemental resistance, and DR, and they underestimated the minor perks like bonus feats and a spell pool.

 

[James McMurray]

The primary downside to prestige classes is the prerequisites. They generally cause you to spend skill points on non-used skills, pick less than optimal feats, etc.

Other than that, there aren't a lot of downsides to PrCs.

 

[War Golem]

Yeah, I knew the pre-requisites could be an entry level "cost" for some PrCs, in addition to the loss of increased class abilities.

I'm playing a cleric and was looking over the Contemplative PrC from DotF - its prerequisites are almost nil, especially compared to something like the Loremaster. With such minimal prerequisites and +1 level spellcasting, this PrC seems a bit unbalanced.

Anyone had any experience with it in actual game-play?

-War Golem

 

[Darkness]

I hate not getting Rebuke. Hence, I tend to shy away from PrCls for clerics.

 

[Pielorinho]

For druids, there's a pretty significant downside: wildshaping continues to get better and better, and giving it up is painful. Plus, druids keep getting cool little other powers -- immunity to poison, change self at will, etc.

For sorcerers, other than the familiar's lack of cool new powers, there's no downside at all. No class has fewer hit points or skill points. The only possible downside occurs if the class introduces a limitation (e.g., prohibits casting from a particular school of magic).

I think this is a balance problem with PrCs, but I'm not sure how to fix it.

Daniel

 

[Spatzimaus]

its prerequisites are almost nil, especially compared to something like the Loremaster. With such minimal prerequisites and +1 level spellcasting, this PrC seems a bit unbalanced.

I've seen this in other places too. For example, I have a Psion. He goes looking for PrCs. The ones in the PsiHB suck, for the most part. But when Bruce Cordell reworked them, they became too good; there was now no reason NOT to take a few levels of Metamind, all it cost you was one Feat. Stop taking it before you hit a level that doesn't give spellcasting.

Or consider the Mind's Eye ones from the WotC website. Crystalsinger's requirements: 2 item Feats, and 8 ranks each of Psicraft and Knowledge (arcana), two skills I'll already be taking. Oh, and the ability to cast 3rd-level powers or something. The point is, these are all things I'll already be getting.
The crystalsinger gets +1 spellcasting level every level except 5 and 10, so why wouldn't you take 4 levels of it?
Shadow Mind, same thing. Lots of benefits, not much for drawbacks.

To me, the decision to take a PrC should be painful. Take the Constructor PrC (WotC website). Nice class. Gets a lot of good abilities. Requires two Feats that anyone who uses these spells will want anyway. Gives out something like 7 or 8 extra Feats.
But, it has a extra limitation: you must know every Astral Construct power you can. That REALLY hurts.
Even if you love constructs, this'll still be enough to make you think before taking it. (My thought: allow Astral Tasker powers to substitute)

Frankly, a LOT of PrCs are unbalanced IMHO. Look at the fighter-types. You trade the flexibility of the core class for a more specialized role, except that everyone already HAS specialized by the time they're high level. Take the Dwarven Defender. Not a bad class, but it gives fighter-types a bunch of Barbarianish abilities without needing to multiclass.