D&D 5E Precision Attack + SS + CBE is like +2d6 sword

[FrogReaver]

Then what feat are you giving the sword fighter?

None - There's not one that really helps a sword and shield fighters damage. If you must pick something pick savage attacker or be a half orc for the enhanced critical.

 

[DnD Warlord]

CBE is in the thread title. If you aren’t talking about this then You aren’t talking about what this thread is about. why even comment until you know what it is? Do you realize how frustrating it is to deal with points that don’t really address the topic at hand?

By the way it stands for crossbow expertise.

If you don’t like talking general D&D you are in the wrong place... how does cross bow expert help on accuaracy or damage?

 

[DnD Warlord]

So I did check the Raging Half Orc Barbarian with reckless attack and a GreatAxe against the SS CBE Precision attack Fighter.

The Barbarian was only a +1 weapon down at level 5 and about a +1d10 weapon down at level 8. Alternatively, the GWM feat could also make up the difference for him.

What is +1 weapon means??? And +1d10???

The barabarian has advantage when ever he wants (or nullies disadvantage) so he is ceiling more often and even useing a d10 weapon for range the barbarian has th D12 weapon...

Even better while your fighter is at range the barbarian is up close and taking hits saving other party members

 

[Iry]

So, I did some math on this, using a 6th-level battlemaster--the earliest point that you can get two feats without being VH.

I think your assessment is spot on for many combats. However, SS+CBE brings several quality of life improvements (negating cover, etc) that allow any character to maintain effective damage across a wide variety of situations. It even feels more fun.

Speaking generally now, SS+CBE is definitely a powerful combination. But I'm honestly torn if anything needs to be done about it at all. It empowers a very specific kind of build that most people might play once or twice, ever. Maybe the combo will rotate between players from one campaign to the next. If it happens in your campaign, the easiest answer is to shrug and let the player have their fun. Just make sure nobody else feels bad.

If I absolutely must do something to improve the balance, I would change SS to this:

Sharpshooter
You have mastered ranged weapons and can make shots that others find impossible. You gain the following benefits:
• Increase your Dexterity by 1, to a maximum of 20.
• Attacking at long range doesn't impose disadvantage on your ranged weapon attack rolls.
• Your ranged weapons ignore half cover and three-quarters cover.

 

[Dausuul]

None

HA HA HA HA HA HA!

This is preposterous even for you. Of course the crossbow fighter comes out ahead if you give them a free feat. It also helps if you compare to a sword-and-shield fighter, a build which deliberately sacrifices damage output for better defense, and then compare them on a metric (DPR) which completely ignores defense.

Nothing more to say on this. You're cheating outrageously to achieve your desired outcome. The truth is that the SS/CBE combo is modestly superior to a no-frills greatsword fighter, but nowhere near as much as you claim.

 

[FrogReaver]

Maybe GWM is still a good feat for a sword and shield fighter?

I think your assessment is spot on for many combats. However, SS+CBE brings several quality of life improvements (negating cover, etc) that allow any character to maintain effective damage across a wide variety of situations. It even feels more fun.

Speaking generally now, SS+CBE is definitely a powerful combination. But I'm honestly torn if anything needs to be done about it at all. It empowers a very specific kind of build that most people might play once or twice, ever. Maybe the combo will rotate between players from one campaign to the next. If it happens in your campaign, the easiest answers is to shrug and let the player have their fun. Just make sure nobody else feels bad.

If I absolutely must do something to improve the balance, I would change SS to this:

Sharpshooter
You have mastered ranged weapons and can make shots that others find impossible. You gain the following benefits:
• Increase your Dexterity by 1, to a maximum of 20.
• Attacking at long range doesn't impose disadvantage on your ranged weapon attack rolls.
• Your ranged weapons ignore half cover and three-quarters cover.

I'm not suggesting anything must be done about it - just that we are able to understand the combo's impact on fighter damage. If you are okay with it after understanding the impact then that's fine. I don't think most people really understand the true impact of it though - which is about the equivalent of adding a +2d6 sword to your sword and shield fighter. It's just when put in that light it's harder to argue nothing needs done about it.

 

[DnD Warlord]

Also does not the rest of the party matter...

If you have a ranged warlock and a rogue in the party the rogue would much rather a sword and board fighter to help him get sneak attacks... and that damage increase alone would be worth it.

 

[FrogReaver]

HA HA HA HA HA HA!

This is preposterous even for you. Of course the crossbow fighter comes out ahead if you give them a free feat. It also helps if you compare to a sword-and-shield fighter, a build which deliberately sacrifices damage output for better defense, and then compare them on a metric (DPR) which completely ignores defense.

Nothing more to say on this. You're cheating outrageously to achieve your desired outcome. The truth is that the SS/CBE combo is modestly superior to a no-frills greatsword fighter, but nowhere near as much as you claim.

Why are you trying to force the comparison with greatsword fighter when I started with sword and shield? Maybe we should start there?

Sword and Shield at least has significantly higher AC to offset the benefits of 120 ft range. Which is the reason I chose sword and shield. It's at least arguable that +2 AC and OA's is worth trading for 120ft range.

Greatsword would actually need to do more damage than the SS + CBE + Precision fighter to be comparable - so that the range component is compensated for.

 

[FrogReaver]

Also does not the rest of the party matter...

If you have a ranged warlock and a rogue in the party the rogue would much rather a sword and board fighter to help him get sneak attacks... and that damage increase alone would be worth it.

I'd rather have the all ranged party in that example

CBE still allows you to move up to melee range with enemies while using a ranged weapon to help enable your rogues sneak attack.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Why are you trying to force the comparison with greatsword fighter when I started with sword and shield? Maybe we should start there?

Sword and Shield at least has significantly higher AC to offset the benefits of 120 ft range. Which is the reason I chose sword and shield. It's at least arguable that +2 AC and OA's is worth trading for 120ft range.

Greatsword would actually need to do more damage than the SS + CBE + Precision fighter to be comparable - so that the range component is compensated for.

Shield master would be a good feat then. Even if you only knock the enemy prone after your attack, you still should do more damage by enabling your melee companions. Also when you use action surge you can benefit from the shove yourself.
I still like mage adept though... greenflame blade or booming blade, while falling off later on is quite good on level 4, the only level you want to compare. It is a warlock spell, so you can take also take hex. That is +1d8 possible extra damage +1d6 from hex seems to close the gap you created...