D&D 4E Presentation vs design... vs philosophy

[Charlaquin]

If someone says they hate a thing and you look them in the eye and tell them that thing is absolutely amazing - are you treating that person badly?

Are you treating them as if your opinion of a game is more important than their feelings?

I don’t think so. Try applying that “say it about a 5 year old’s art” metric. A 5 year old draws a picture and says it sucks, but you tell them you think it’s beautiful, they won’t agree with you but you won’t hurt their feelings.

 

[Garthanos]

Anything a human can be reasonably expected to accomplish by their own power.

innadequate as hell and you know it.

 

[FrogReaver]

I don’t think so. Try applying that “say it about a 5 year old’s art” metric. A 5 year old draws a picture and says it sucks, but you tell them you think it’s beautiful, they won’t agree with you but you won’t hurt their feelings.

That's because the object is something they are personally responsible for. Try telling them that fords are amazing when their daddy mentions how bad they are everytime they drive down the road. You'll get a much different reaction.

Try telling a 5 year old girl that tells you she hates football how amazing football is. A much different reaction again.

 

[FrogReaver]

I think where this falls down is in that in order for it to hold, it has to make the claim that hatred and enjoyment both deserve equal legitimacy as something to personally identify with, and therefore have others express empathy for, as it pertains to leisure activities.

I think if you asked most people "if someone were to make active hatred (meaning its expressed in the form of activism or protest) of a leisure activity a tangible part of their identity, (a) is that healthy and (b) is it worthy of deference"...my guess is most people would say "absolutely not" to both (a) and (b).

Now if you subbed "enjoyment" for "active hatred", my guess is people would overwhelmingly say "yes" to both (a) and (b).

I think that in large part would depend on the leisure activity in question.

 

[Neonchameleon]

If someone says they hate a thing and you look them in the eye and tell them that thing is absolutely amazing - are you treating that person badly? Are you treating them as if your opinion of a game is more important than their feelings?

Your dynamic fails because it doesn't work both ways - it only expects "empathy" from whatever side you already believe is in the wrong. IMO

The dynamic does not fail. It simply very reasonably prioritises love over hate.

When you love something you make yourself happier. When you hate something you make yourself angrier. When you love something it therefore does you good. When you hate something it does you harm.

Hate can be a powerful tool against something meaningful, like injustice. But D&D is just a game. No version of D&D is worth hate. Neither for that matter is FATAL or RaHoWa.

If someone says they love something and you say you hate it and manage to change their mind or that of the bystanders to side with you you've just made their world a darker place that is less full of love. Way to go. If you've made them less likely to talk about the thing they love you've just made the world a darker place less full of love and love getting shared.

On the other hand if someone says they hate something and you say you love it and manage to change their mind or that of the bystanders to make them side with you you've made the world a brighter place and full of more joy and love for those whose minds you've changed. If you've done no more than made them stop sharing their hated you've cut down the amount of hate being spread in the world, and by doing so made the world a brighter place.

If you love something do more of it and find more of the people who love it. But if you hate it the best thing that you can do is to leave it alone and find something else to focus on, something that you love. Both masturbation and watching paint dry are better uses of your time than going round saying you hate things.

 

[Charlaquin]

innadequate as hell and you know it.

I don’t know it. It has been perfectly adequate for me, and in fact, having that as the guideline instead of a gigantic list of tasks and DCs and modifiers I have to memorize has made it considerably easier for me to adjudicate actions. Never again do I have to worry that I misremembered the DC for weaving an 11th level masterwork basket or forgot to apply the penalty for doing fiber arts underwater, or the bonus for expert weaver’s tools. I can just go “yeah, that seems like something that could succeed or fail and has consequences. Make a moderate difficulty Dexterity check with disadvantage for being underwater.”

 

[Sadras]

Both masturbation and watching paint dry are better uses of your time than going round saying you hate things.

Philosophy at its best.

 

[Charlaquin]

That's because the object is something they are personally responsible for. Try telling them that fords are amazing when their daddy mentions how bad they are everytime they drive down the road. You'll get a much different reaction.

Yes, he’ll say I’m wrong and try to argue with me. That’s a very different thing. It’s not going to hurt his feelings.

Try telling a 5 year old girl that tells you she hates football how amazing football is. A much different reaction again.

My dude, I’ve been a 5 year old girl that hates football, and I can tell you never once have my feelings been hurt when people have tried to tell me how amazing it is. I’ve rolled my eyes and whined about how boring I find it. I’ve had my feelings hurt by people who teased me for not liking it. But I have never, ever had my feelings hurt by someone trying to tell me it’s a great game. I’ve even come around to accept that, yeah, it is a great game, just not one that interests me in the slightest.

 

[Manbearcat]

I think that in large part would depend on the leisure activity in question.

You'd have to show your math there (figuratively), because I'm not connecting with your meaning here.

Is it something like:

I make leisure activity x an absolutely cornerstone of my life.

Therefore, my active hatred (proselytizing, activism, protest...to both bystanders and people who enjoy it) as it pertains to it are worthy of respect, deference. and empathy.

Is that your meaning? In proportion to how deeply you identify with a leisure activity is the proportion to which your active hatred should be worthy of respect, deference, and empathy?

 

[FrogReaver]

The dynamic does not fail. It simply very reasonably prioritises love over hate.

When you love something you make yourself happier. When you hate something you make yourself angrier. When you love something it therefore does you good. When you hate something it does you harm.

Hate can be a powerful tool against something meaningful, like injustice. But D&D is just a game. No version of D&D is worth hate. Neither for that matter is FATAL or RaHoWa.

If someone says they love something and you say you hate it and manage to change their mind or that of the bystanders to side with you you've just made their world a darker place that is less full of love. Way to go. If you've made them less likely to talk about the thing they love you've just made the world a darker place less full of love and love getting shared.

I believe believe honest and open dialogue that changes someone's mind is far better than no dialogue taking place and them remaining in a blissfully ignorant state.

On the other hand if someone says they hate something and you say you love it and manage to change their mind or that of the bystanders to make them side with you you've made the world a brighter place and full of more joy and love for those whose minds you've changed. If you've done no more than made them stop sharing their hated you've cut down the amount of hate being spread in the world, and by doing so made the world a brighter place.

I think you need to sit down and really think through the implications of such a belief. Such a stance isn't going to make the world a better brighter place.

If you love something do more of it and find more of the people who love it. But if you hate it the best thing that you can do is to leave it alone and find something else to focus on, something that you love. Both masturbation and watching paint dry are better uses of your time than going round saying you hate things.

Wow. The best thing you can do is voice your opinions in a respectable manner - whether you like or dislike something - as long as you find the topic important enough to you to spend your time on.