D&D 4E Presentation vs design... vs philosophy

[Maxperson]

Tell me if you need another two dozen pages before we can continue discussing Pathfinder 2...

I don't think it will take more than 14.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Just wizards?.... the Earthsea Trilogy has nice magic.
Though I am thinking that is still an Ars Magica or the Mage the Ascension

That's tough because magic in most stories tends to be so different from D&D magic. On the other hand my first wizard was named after a Piers Anthony character the wizard Trent. My version wasn't quite as cutthroat (he had no desire to rule) but he was definitely neutral out for himself kind of guy.

It is a bit of an issue with standard D&D that heroes like the Grey Mouser, pretty much all the protagonists of Lord of the Rings and even Conan are very mundane, low-tier heroes in D&D terms.
When you think of them in a D&D party, matched up in capability with D&D spellcasters, they tend to fall rather short.

 

[Oofta]

It is a bit of an issue with standard D&D that heroes like the Grey Mouser, pretty much all the protagonists of Lord of the Rings and even Conan are very mundane, low-tier heroes in D&D terms.
When you think of them in a D&D party, matched up in capability with D&D spellcasters, they tend to fall rather short.

True, but I enjoy playing those "very mundane" PCs now and then. Just because they can't do magic doesn't make them less fun to play for me.

 

[Manbearcat]

I have no idea how many people will get this reference (I grew up in my early years, 9-13, as a skater).

I wonder if there is an aspect of Rodney Mullen vs Mark Gonzales in Street Skating pioneering. During my youth, Rodney Mullen (an absolute freak of a talent...really without comparison) was roundly decried as "not a Street Skater" while Mark Gonzales was the "god of Street Skating". This was because of a few things:

1) Rodney was an incredibly technical skater who didn't embrace the overarching counter-culture zeitgeist of skating (not because he was antagonistic to it, but because he was an introverted loner because of several reasons related to his early years). He also used a smaller board which was associated with "Freestyle" skating (later he used a normal sized board and easily pulled off the savant level innovation he did on the Freestyle board...and actually revolutionized the actual skateboard itself). Because of these things, the Street Skating community not only didn't accept him, they roundly rejected him (and tried to diminish his skill). I was right in the middle of this. I remember it vividly.

Thankfully, this is no longer the case, as Rodney Mullen is right where he should be now; the Mount Rushmore of Skating.

2) Mark Gonazles was a pioneer of Street Skating in all of the classical ways. He was a entrenched in the counterculture and his skating was pretty much "all art" and freakishly creative and skillful. He also used the standard sized board in his Street Skating. Because of these three things; culture, style, mechanics, he was roundly loved and praised as the God of Street Skating for that period (while Rodney was roundly decried). He's still on the Mount Rushmore of Skating (where he belongs).


Seems like an interesting analogue with a fair amount of overlap.

 

[Aldarc]

So what does that make Tony Hawk?

 

[Manbearcat]

So what does that make Tony Hawk?

He’s on the Mount Rushmore with Mullen and Gonzales.

Hawk is the greatest Vert skater of all time (but much of what he introduced to Vert at the beginning he cribbed from Mullen).

 

[Oofta]

He’s on the Mount Rushmore with Mullen and Gonzales.

Hawk is the greatest Vert skater of all time (but much of what he introduced to Vert at the beginning he cribbed from Mullen).

Wait ... so all three are going to be skating down Mount Rushmore? Legen-wait-for-it-dary!

 

[FrozenNorth]

M

Tell me if you need another two dozen pages before we can continue discussing Pathfinder 2...

Maybe you should make a new thread about how PF2 failed to learn the lessons from 3e? I’m sure such a post will attract very little discussion about the strengths and weaknesses of 3e!

 

[Don Durito]

It is a bit of an issue with standard D&D that heroes like the Grey Mouser, pretty much all the protagonists of Lord of the Rings and even Conan are very mundane, low-tier heroes in D&D terms.
When you think of them in a D&D party, matched up in capability with D&D spellcasters, they tend to fall rather short.

The Grey Mouser would be what? About 5th or 6th Level? I don't see any reason to put him higher. That puts him at about the scale of a wizard with one fireball - that doesn't seem too out of sync to me.

Conan would be higher probably more around 8 or 9 - he's getting into superhuman territory. But he still has trouble with sorcery in the books but of course he gets through a lot because he has very good saving throws so probably feels workable in AD&D, just less so from 3E on.

I never really knowwhat to make of the criticism that D&D magic is not like magic in fantasy novels. Magic in fantasy novels is generally not like magic in fantasy novels (as in they're in no way consistent with each other). It has to stab at something. (And actually with traditional D&D you can do an awful lot just by curating the spell lists.).

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*