Prestige class prerequisites?

[Alzrius]

The rules say that if you take a feat that you have the prerequisites for, and then at a later time aren't able to meet the prerequisites for some reason, you can't use the feat until you meet them again. But what about prestige classes?

For example, if my evil character has taken two levels in the assassin PrC, and then has a change of alignment to true neutral, it's a given that he can't take any further levels in the PrC, but what about the existing levels he's already got? Can he still use all of the class features? Can he not use any of them? The RAW seems to be silent on this issue, so I'm not sure of the answer here.

 

[Sejs]

The rules say that if you take a feat that you have the prerequisites for, and then at a later time aren't able to meet the prerequisites for some reason, you can't use the feat until you meet them again. But what about prestige classes?

For example, if my evil character has taken two levels in the assassin PrC, and then has a change of alignment to true neutral, it's a given that he can't take any further levels in the PrC, but what about the existing levels he's already got? Can he still use all of the class features? Can he not use any of them? The RAW seems to be silent on this issue, so I'm not sure of the answer here.

If you lose the pre-reqs, you lose access to all of the class features until you are able to satisfy the requirements again.

You retain the basic hd related things: BAB, hit points, save bonuses, skill ranks, etc., but none of the special abilities such as in this case death attack, the sneak attack progression you've gained, assassin spellcasting abilities and so on.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The RAW seems to be silent on this issue, so I'm not sure of the answer here.

See Complete Warrior p16; it says what Sejs outlined above. Note that this text originally appeared (or close enough) in the 3E DMG section on PrCs; it does not appear in the 3.5 DMG... but then again, neither does the note that PrCs do not count towards XP penalties for multiclassing.

It seems to me that CW16 is merely correcting an accidental omission.

-Hyp.

 

[Moonstone Spider]

That could lead to some amusing situations. Just imagine the fodder order of the stick could have with missing prereqs.

Assassin: "Stab! Face my death attack!"
Roy: "Ha! We saved Elan at the last second when you thought you'd killed him. . .so you don't meet the prereqs for assassin and your class abilities no longer function!"

 

[Bacris]

The only problem with hard & fast rules like this are what about the PrCs that by their very definition make you no longer meet your pre-reqs?

for example, the dragon disciple (although not the best PrC...) has in its prereqs: Race: Any nondragon (cannot already be a half-dragon).

Yet at 10th level, "Dragon Apotheosis: At 10th level, a dragon disciple takes on the half-dragon template. His breath weapon reaches full strength (as noted above), and he gains +4 to Strength and +2 to Charisma. His natural armor bonus increases to +4, and he acquires low-light vision, 60-foot darkvision, immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, and immunity to the energy type used by his breath weapon (see above)."

And half-dragon has: "Size and Type: The creature’s type changes to dragon. Size is unchanged. Do not recalculate base attack bonus or saves."

So by definition, if you reach 10th level in Dragon disciple, you no longer qualify for your PrC and therefore, lose all class features, including your template, which makes you qualify again, which then makes you no longer qualify, etc?

 

[Deset Gled]

So by definition, if you reach 10th level in Dragon disciple, you no longer qualify for your PrC and therefore, lose all class features, including your template, which makes you qualify again, which then makes you no longer qualify, etc?

Yes, this is a major problem with the CW ruling. To try and figure out what the strict rules answer is, you have to decided if you consider the primary source of information on PrC prerequisites to be the text from CW (since that is the first place it is explicitly called out), or the actual PrCs in the DMG (since they are the first instances of PrC prerequisites). IMO, both rulings would have merit.

Personally, I think the CW ruling makes sense when you talk about prerequisites like feats, but falls apart when you look at alignment or racial prereqs. It just doesn't make sense to me that an Assassin would forget how to use a Death Attack and half of their sneak attack dice just because they became a little less evil and turned neutral. With all of the base classes, you do not lose class abilities by no longer fullfilling prerequisites unless the class specifically says you do (monks and barbarians don't, clerics and paladins do). This is reseverd for cases where the abilities are granted by a deity.

 

[Hypersmurf]

With all of the base classes, you do not lose class abilities by no longer fullfilling prerequisites unless the class specifically says you do (monks and barbarians don't...)

Except for Rage, of course...

It just doesn't make sense to me that an Assassin would forget how to use a Death Attack and half of their sneak attack dice just because they became a little less evil and turned neutral.

But it doesn't bother you that someone who isn't evil can't learn to make a Death Attack in the first place?

-Hyp.

 

[Shazman]

The RAW may say the assassain would lose those abilities, but it seems to make more sense for them to keep all of the class abiliites except for maybe death attack and any spells that have the evil descriptor. Where do you draw the line on class abilites lost? You might as well say they lost hit dice, skill points, BAB, save bonuses, etc. I can see a character such as a paladin loosing divinely granted abilities due to an alignment change, but an assassain turned non-evil shouldn't get a major case of amnesia. It just seems silly and arbitrary. An assassain turned good (or at least non-evil) would be a cool character concept if played well. This concept shouldn't be weakened by stripping them of class abilities. This is where some common sense from the GM comes into play.

 

[Dross]

The only problem with hard & fast rules like this are what about the PrCs that by their very definition make you no longer meet your pre-reqs?

for example, the dragon disciple (although not the best PrC...) has in its prereqs: Race: Any nondragon (cannot already be a half-dragon).

Yet at 10th level, "Dragon Apotheosis: At 10th level, a dragon disciple takes on the half-dragon template. His breath weapon reaches full strength (as noted above), and he gains +4 to Strength and +2 to Charisma. His natural armor bonus increases to +4, and he acquires low-light vision, 60-foot darkvision, immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, and immunity to the energy type used by his breath weapon (see above)."

And half-dragon has: "Size and Type: The creature’s type changes to dragon. Size is unchanged. Do not recalculate base attack bonus or saves."

So by definition, if you reach 10th level in Dragon disciple, you no longer qualify for your PrC and therefore, lose all class features, including your template, which makes you qualify again, which then makes you no longer qualify, etc?

I take this to be an example of a specific situation over-ruling the general rule of what you need to qualify for a PC.

 

[Cerowyn]

The only problem with hard & fast rules like this are what about the PrCs that by their very definition make you no longer meet your pre-reqs?

for example, the dragon disciple (although not the best PrC...) has in its prereqs: Race: Any nondragon (cannot already be a half-dragon).

I think you have to try pretty hard not to notice that the prestige class description already answers your question. The very reason they state "cannot already be a half-dragon" tells you that it only applies in advance of taking the prestige class. If it instead said, "cannot be a half-dragon," then the 10th level acquisition of the half-dragon template would indeed cause a problem. As written, it's fine.