Prestige Class Rules should be for players only

[Buttercup]

Are there other DM's out there that dont' bother with prestige classes, because they're just a waste of time for a DM to write up?

I don't bother with prestige classes for NPCs. Then again, I have yet to have a player ask for a prestige class. I guess they agree with me (though we've never discussed it) that Prestige Classes just aren't necessary. You can do just about anything you want with the base classes. I don't think it's necessary to have rules for everything. YMMV, of course.

i would assert that creating something different & memorable for your players is never a waste of time.

I agree 100%. I just don't think prestige classes for NPCs are necessary to to achieve that. One of my players was playing in two games, and became so busy that she had to drop out of one. She told me that the choice was easy, because my game gave her "much more visceral thrills" than the other game. It was one of the finest complements I can imagine receiving from a player, but that's not why I brought it up. I mention it merely to back up my argument that prestige classes are not the only way to earn your Rat Bastard DM badge.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go and polish that badge.

 

[Buttercup]

A couple other comments.

I abide by the same rules as the players. As a wise person upthread said, how else do you know what the challenge rating should be?

When statting my NPCs, I give any recurring NPC who I think will engage in combat a full stat block. I also give them a few paragraphs of biographical information. Many times I don't end up using it, but it has come in handy often enough that it seems worth while. I know which one of them is secretly in love with which other one. I know if they had a tough childhood. I know if they have an embarrassing, itchy rash. I'm the DM, (otherwise known as God) so it's my job to know these things.

For the wallpaper type NPCs such as barmaids, blacksmiths and ratcatchers, I just use the statblocks from the *excellent* PDF Everyone Else if I stat them at all.

 

[S'mon]

Are there other DM's out there that dont' bother with prestige classes, because they're just a waste of time for a DM to write up?

I use them very occasionally for NPCs - most of my NPCs come from Jamis Buck's generators, tweaked to fit, and so no prestige classes by default. I don't think much of the WoTC prestige classes anyway, so I don't use most of them. I'll occasionally apply one for a special NPC, eg the Legend prestige class for one particular legendary warrior. whether I'll fully detail an NPC's abilities depends on their use in-game, whether I'll do it by-the-book, likewise. Generally speaking, opponents of the PCs require the strictest rules-adherence, background & flavour NPCs don't.

 

[Nifft]

I generally stat out the BBEGs, complete with a special gimmick, then make their minions either "immitators" (weaker versions of the BBEG, complete with weaker version of the gimmick) or "compensators" (gimmickless, make up for one of the BBEG's weaknesses).

For example, a Kyton with Fighter levels who uses (duh) a spiked chain, and has hobgoblin fighter/rogue minions who use spiked chains too. For compensators, he might emply Imp sorcerers or goblin archers.

Or, I make a group with a "tactic set", and everyone has a gimmick. For example, one group my PCs met recently had a scout, a blaster (Psion), and three "defenders" -- PsiWarriors with glaives and the Stand Still Feat who protected the blaster. The group had high mobility (Shadow Dancer's Shadow Jump, Psion & PsiWar's Speed of Thought) and tried to use the terrain to their advantage.

-- N

 

[S'mon]

In 1e/2e I used to enjoy statting out NPCs. In 3e it seems to take umpteen times longer, or maybe it's just I'm umpteen years older. In any case, it can be quite a chore. Jamis Buck's generators provide a good starting point, but doing out all their equipment & its effects on AC, saves, attack & damage etc is tiring. Often I yearn for the days of Fighting Fantasy and stat blocks like "Orc Skill 6 Stamina 5".

 

[Lela]

I almost always (unless something odd comes up) stat out my BBEGs and their more powerful assistants. Tricks I've found are creating a kind of nighthood and use the same sheet for all of them. Varry it up by having different the power levels (CR 5, 8, 12, 14, etc.). I'm also not above pulling out old enimies sheets and reusing them if needed (it wouldn't be the same NPC just the same stats). After DMing 16 levels I've found myself with a resonable pile of stats that I can use again and again. In fact, on Monday I plan to pull out a Vampire my PCs fought back at 6th level and pop his stats in as two guys guarding the door to a BBEG (Vamp version). They won't be much of a roadblock but they're already fully stated out (because I did it back then) and won't require much work. Besides, I only need them to hold the group off for a round or two.

For those who don't like statting out NPCs, consider the various computer programs. Though they're in flux right now (because of the 3.5 changes) but they should be coming in strong soon. They'd help you out on time issues.

 

[Will]

I've used PrCs for NPCs mainly as experiments of various designs I've never tried as a PC.

Like 'Huh, I wonder how a mystic theurge works in practice?' (scribble scribble) 'Oh, interesting. Not a lot of turning, breadth of spells, not much high power. About what I expected...'

And so on. One thing I like about statting out NPCs, particularly those the party will fight, is in giving them _reasonable_ spell lists.

That is, it's really not fair to have a wizard optimized for fighting the PCs (unless, of course, he prepared to do so). So NPCs often have spells like Scrying, and Tongues, and other stuff that would be handy for the character.

This somewhat keeps the cheese of 'why do NPCs have full complements of spells when the PCs meet them?'

 

[Olive]

That is, it's really not fair to have a wizard optimized for fighting the PCs (unless, of course, he prepared to do so). So NPCs often have spells like Scrying, and Tongues, and other stuff that would be handy for the character.

I do that as well, but that's partly because I scry on my players A LOT.

On PrCs, I fall into the 'i use the same rules as the players' crowd. I care about feat pre-reqs, and I like PrCs as a way to do different and interesting things.

I don't bother with prestige classes for NPCs. Then again, I have yet to have a player ask for a prestige class. I guess they agree with me (though we've never discussed it) that Prestige Classes just aren't necessary. You can do just about anything you want with the base classes. I don't think it's necessary to have rules for everything. YMMV, of course.

Wow, this might be the first time I've disagreed with Buttercup! I do think it's good to have rules for everything. It gives a base line. Those rules should work around a core mechanic of course, but in general I'm not a game designer, I don't want to make up rules i want to play with them!

Just out of interest, how would you use core classes to replicate something like the dragon desciple or the alienist or even the dualist?

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I nearly always fully stat my NPCs. It's fun and, at least for me, it's pretty easy. I generally decide who they are, take the standard array and either boost it a few points or drop it down (approximating the non-elite array) depending upon the quality of the character. After that, give them hit points (I generally use the same 50%+1 method I let players use) pick a couple of feats (not hard--most characters fall into easily recognized types (frex, the Power Attack/Cleave/Weapon Focus/Weapon specialization type, the Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus/Spell Penetration/Quicken Spell blaster type, the Weapon finesse/weapon focus/combat expertise/improved feint type, the Extra Turning/Improved Turning/Heighten Turning/Quicken Turning type, etc.). Then if they have extra feats, I can either beef up saves, hit points, skills, or give them non-combat abilities (skill focus: basketweaving if they're not primarily combatants). For skills, I just pick one per skill point (per level) and max them out if I'm in a hurry.

Adding prestige classes doesn't take much extra time since I'm familiar with what characters need to have in order to get in. The Weapon Master?
Female Human Ftr 6/Weapon master 3; etc. (Weapon Focus, Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Iron Will, Spring Attack, Weapon Specialization, Whirlwind Attack, Improved Critical)
It's not as if you can do a weapon master in much of any other way. (Although I could use a non-human or forgoe weapon specialization and/or Iron Will, etc).

Plus, I've found prestige classes add a lot to the game. When I was regularly running a home campaing, I sprang two prestige-classed villains on the PCs. The Ravager was a big surprise--he used pain touch on his iterative attack and floored the cleric ("Erythnul take you" actually meant something). The Knight of the Twisting Serpent (a class I adapted from one in the House Rules forum two years ago) worked very well too.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

*Singing* 'Stat em up, stat 'em up, baby gotta write you down...'

Seriously, writing 'em down helps me get a handle on their abilities, what they can do and, just as importantly, what they cannot do.

Plus it's an excuse to futz around with PCGen...

Prestige classes are if anything more useful for an NPC, where their tightly focused abilities can be used where they do the most good (or evil, as the case may be...) Creating your own PrCs can also be a blast, especially foor classes that the PCs would be bored playing.
'So you're a Master Artillerist, eh? What do you do?'
'I level cities, reduce fortifications, and reign destruction down upon the King's enemies!'
'Oh... Does it pay well?'
'Eh, it's a living...'

The Auld Grump