Prestige Classes and Worldbuilding

[Hand of Evil]

As it is,I tend to restric players to no more than 1 prestige class in a character. I just cannot see how someone could split their time between such organizations and/or ideals. To me, it is a lot like being a Priest (specialized Catholic Cleric) and a Rabbi (specialized Jewish Cleric) -- a little hard to adhere to both ideals here.

I see them as types of jobs, basicly players fall into the standard classes and for the most part that is good enough but then they 'get a job' this is the prestige class, they work at it for so long then move on.

In the story/history of the game and player he builds his resume. I personally only think a character would only have 2 or less prestige classes in their life time.

So you could have a Priest/Undead Hunter and a Rabbi/Undead Hunter. Both the Priest/Rabbi are clerics that do a special job.

 

[Psion]

I thought I would reproduce my reply to KDLadage's post on RPGnet:

So far, I would say that the biggest problem with prestige classes has been the misuse of them by players and DMs in the D&D/d20 community.

Prestige classes were never intended to be generic -- so at the most, each example if a prestige class given in the DMG or any of the various splatbooks (or campaign settings, or Dragon Magazine, or what have you) should -- at most -- be seen as a template for the creation of a Prestige class for your campaign.

While I sort of understand where you are coming from, I really have to disagree with the basic statement.

What is "generic"? Usable in all games? Under that definition, certainly, I would agree. But your statement seems to be that you should never use a prestige class unaltered. I really have to differ with that.

A lot of the ideas in the prestige classes are ideas that appear in many standard D&D games. Do your wizards congregate in guilds? If so, then mage of the arcane order may be an appropriate prestige class. Likewise fist of hextor is as easy fit to Fist of Idan in my game, and the followers of Erythnul become followers of Arimesan. Some of the greyhawk specific references get in the way, but many of the concepts are basic enough that they work in a variety of games.

I have a little "to do" list of prestige classes that I want/need to make for my world. I find that with every supplement, I can cross off a few of those classes. Some may need a nip and a tuck, but many make it into may campaign as is. The trick is that the campaign worlds uniqueness comes, in part, by the elements you have chosen to include.

Prestige classes are much like many other mechanical aspects of the game: they are elements of the world / characters. If those building blocks fit the construction of the world, then use them.

I maintain a list of appropriate prestige classes for my world, with some tweaks, alterations, or background notes to make it fit. To my pleasure, an article in the latest dragon recommends that you do just this.

 

[Psion]

Originally posted by KDLadage
As it is,I tend to restric players to no more than 1 prestige class in a character. I just cannot see how someone could split their time between such organizations and/or ideals. To me, it is a lot like being a Priest (specialized Catholic Cleric) and a Rabbi (specialized Jewish Cleric) -- a little hard to adhere to both ideals here.

That is a slightly skewed example, as you should never logically be able to combine that... and the in-game requirements should reflect that. For example, if you have two prestige classes that are made to describe advanced priests of different faiths, you should have a patron requirement... a single character cannot realistically meet both requirements.

But there are a lot of examples that might work together. For example, I could see an eldritch master taking levels in summoner or acolyte of the skin, as the three concepts have some basic similarities. Likewise, a member of the order of the bow or a deepwood sniper could become converted to a snake cult and become a serpent archer.

The DM is the final arbirter, but the requirements of the class should be the first line of defense. Stating that you should only have one prestige class is rather arbitrary and not necessarily realistic at all.

 

[Psion]

The main problem that I have with Prestige Classes is that most of them are overpowered (or the core classes are underpowered, depending on how you look at it). A Fighter10 usually has no chance of standing up to a Fighter5/Prestige Class5, for example. They are making it where you almost have to take one or more prestige classes in order to stay competitive.

Most of them are overpowered? I really beg to differ. SOME of them are overpowered. (The exception seems to be an over-preponderance of spellcasting classes that provide +1 caster level at every level... but I have also seen some classes overcompensate the other direction. A spellcasting level is a big hit.)

I think that Prestige Classes should have more drawbacks. And just so you know, I don't consider having to "waste" a feat or "waste" 4 ranks in a cross-class skill to be a fitting drawback.

Again, I disagree. As a character your feats and skill ranks are your resource pool. Getting something in return for giving up something from that resource pool is not too much to ask... and is much better than slapping on "disadvantages" and expecting them to have a meaningful impact.

There should be some incentive to stay with a core class instead of taking a Prestige Class.

Funny... of all my players, only one currently has a prestige class. I think the incentive is just about right.

 

[Umbran]

Like many other things in the game, how it gets used is perhaps not so much a function of the designers' intent as it is a function of the particular gaming group.

Some people really like having the full sweep of prestige classes around. They like having them there as sources of funky abilities. And that's okay.

Personally, I prefer to use the DMG suggestion of using them for world-building. I choose to include prestige classes based upon the effect they'd have on the world's story. If the presence of the class would make the world richer and more interesting, then I'll consider it. If it would simply provide another direction to focus power, I probably won't include it. If the game world would be pretty muich the same without a given PrC, then you won't see that class in my game.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I, too, like to stick with the general principle of Prestige Classes being world-building, campaign specific things.

I started off by creating a few specific prestige classes for my campaign - Chosen of Asura, Tillanian Dragonfriends, Southlander Honourbound Knights and Damdzan mercenaries (all on my web page below). I plan to introduce prestige classes for Grey Lawgivers, Lord High Priests and Southlander Nobles.

Having looked at the various supplements and dragon articles there are a few (very few) prestige classes which I've built into my world, because they fit specific niches. I've added the Duellist (who becomes a Sword Coast Duellist), The Alienist (because they fit right in with a villanous organisation I already have) and the iaijutsu master (who becomes an Asuran Sword Saint).

From the standard books Assassins are included as Mendonnan Assassins - not a generic class, but from a specific location.

The very fact that the class books are aimed at players (brown cover) rather than DMs (blue cover) unfortunately accentuates the idea of generic prestige classes for any player rather than world-specific prestige classes (unless you are running Greyhawk - in which case you might have an annoyance of prestige classes introduced you don't like very much).

One last point - the relationship of prestige classes to base classes is akin to that of base classes to multiclass characters. Multiclasses have a wider breadth but less strength than a base class, typically. The base classes in turn have wider breadth but less strength in one specific focus than a prestige class. In their own particular field it is reasonable to expect the prestige class to outshine all others. Outside that field he doesn't compare so well.

Cheers

 

[SSS-Druid]

This is very much one of my pet concepts, as well - I don't like the idea of the kind of super-specialization that occurs from taking a prestige class to "just happen."

This extends even to my game design; in the upcoming Relics & Rituals 2: Lost Lore, we explain not only how our Prestige Classes fit into the Scarred Lands (this is usually obvious and part of the class description), but how the Prestige Classes from the DMG fit into the setting.

As far as I'm concerned, a Prestige Class should be a reflection of the culture in which the Class develops. They don't have to be the pursuits of active organizations; they can also be remnants of past priesthoods, socieities and the like. Having an elite order of archers is just as useful as having a scattered group of archers who all keep the old secrets alive, long after the destruction of the organization that originally taught those secrets.

 

[Victim]

I think that some prestige classes represent organizations and others represent unusual training and abilities. I can't really see an Honorable Fellowship of Ghostwalkers, for example. Duelists might be trained in a certain school of sword play, or they might be self trained. Foe hunters probably develope most of their abilities through hatred and stubborness, rather than formal training.

Compared to many spell casting PrCs, fighting classes gain little. In terms of class abilities, a sorcerer in a full casting PrC with other abilities is like a fighter getting full attack, bonus feats, and new powers. So far, I've only seen one class for fighters that does this, and it's one of the FR divine wannabe prestige classes.

Interestingly, even classes that seem to give something for nothing can be okay. For example, one of my characters took the Divine Disciple prestige class. It requires 8 ranks in Knowledge religion and 5 diplomacy, along with 4th level spells. It gives full cleric attack, saves, spellcasting, an extra domain, outsider status, and bonuses to some saves. The only thing it doesn't have is turn undead. Essentially free abilities, right? For one level, I was running around with a weak concentration. 2 levels later, some of the skills that I consider important are still at rather poor levels. And, now that I've taken the class, we've started fighting undead. My lack of cleric levels compounds the problem of my poor charisma. My reflex save is also low, because of multiclassing. So far the best things I've gotten from the class are the ability to make Holy weapons, and better Fort and Will saves.

 

[Desdichado]

Just a quick note here: prestige class does not equate to organization. Necessarily. Often they do, and obviously they can, but sometimes a prestige class is just what happens if a character focuses on a particular "thing" that he wants to learn how to do. Blackguard, for instance, is basically an anti-paladin. He doesn't have to belong to an organization of blackguards, he just has to be a paladin that completely rejects his old ideals. A Loremaster is just a researcher, or librarian.

Sometimes a prestige class is just a function of what a character would look like who focused on a particular agenda regardless of organizations or not. To me, these are the most portable of all prestige classes, and IMO, there's plenty of them.

 

[Corinth]

Agreed; as I see it, there are two general uses for prestige classes. The first, as mentioned above, is to put the abilities of a specific group into playable terms. (This would be the sort of thing that the Purple Dragon class does.) The second is to represent a specific iconic archetype in playable terms. (Best seen in the Duelist class.)

I see no reason not to do both, but I do see a need to keep the latter restricted to only those icons that can't be done with just the rules as they exist and are so fundamental that not making the class would diminish the game. (Again, the Duelist is the best example of this concept; to make Dumas-born figure of the rapier-wielding fencer into a viable and playable character in a D&D game, more than an array of feats and basic classes is necessary.)