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<blockquote data-quote="pming" data-source="post: 6826214" data-attributes="member: 45197"><p>Hiya!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think we are just differing on semantics, primarily. However, the problem I see with being able to simply choose to keep a PrC learned ability is kind of the heart of my dislike for how PrC's were/are handled; that being there is absolutely nothing to stop a munchkin player from just gaming the system, as they love to do.</p><p></p><p>Now, don't get me wrong, I have no problem with different players liking different things in the game...including those who are in it mainly for the mechanical tinkering. I have one player (Zoltan...yeah, that's his real name...) is is about 70% "mechanics-oriented" for characters. He likes to see stuff on his sheet and be able to easily equate them to dice roll success chances. Thankfully, he also doesn't like being too "powerful" and will purposefully reign himself in when he sees his character getting a bit out of hand. We're all used to his play style and know exactly what to expect. </p><p></p><p>However... <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> ...the problem did crop up <em>constantly</em> when we were playing our old PF game. That problem was all the time and effort that I, as DM, had to put into two things.</p><p></p><p>First was what we call the "Rifts Problem". You know... <em>"So, what do you guys have in the party"..."A City Rat, a Ranger, a Ley Line Walker, a Glitter Boy, and a Dragon"..."Er....ok....uh...hmmm....".</em> Basically, anything that was a challenge to him would wipe the rest of the party, and anything less was a cake walk for him. Power level variation was just too extreme.</p><p></p><p>Second, and this carries over to my point above, is the annoyance I got every now and then when I would spend time and effort developing interesting hooks, NPC's, rival orders, special lore, etc for his new PrC he just gained, and then, after his second level in it, he just drops it for some other class because he only wanted the power the PrC granted at it's second level. Now that he has it, he could care less about his PrC. It was just dead weight. The rival student? "<em>Oh, yeah, ok Sandella. How about you stop dicking me around, I'll go to the guildmaster and tell him I resign, and that you should take my place. Cool?</em>". What about that NPC villain who wants to kill/capture/corrupt the PC in order to settle some score with the Guild Master? "<em>Oh, so, right...you aren't part of them anymore? Uh...ok. Sorry for the trouble then. No hard feelings, right? C'ya!</em>". Or what about that map he found on the back of a painting in the guild hall? "<em>Oh! Right! Totally forgot about that thing! Something to do with an old book the guildmaster wanted? Hmmm...well, if he ponies up 1,000gp maybe we can go get it for him...discount for being my old teacher</em>".</p><p></p><p>In short, if you take away any repercussions from leaving a guild, then what's the point of trying to limit anything? In my humble opinion, if a PrC gives the PC a social advantage, leaving the PrC should nix that social advantage. Likewise if that PrC gives the PC a mechanical advantage, leaving that PrC should nix that mechanical advantage. Otherwise a PrC becomes nothing more than a name that houses restrictions to get some "kewl new powerz", and destroys utterly the entire point of a PrC; adding flavour and grounding to an ongoing campaign. All IMHO, of course. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>^_^</p><p></p><p>Paul L. Ming</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pming, post: 6826214, member: 45197"] Hiya! I think we are just differing on semantics, primarily. However, the problem I see with being able to simply choose to keep a PrC learned ability is kind of the heart of my dislike for how PrC's were/are handled; that being there is absolutely nothing to stop a munchkin player from just gaming the system, as they love to do. Now, don't get me wrong, I have no problem with different players liking different things in the game...including those who are in it mainly for the mechanical tinkering. I have one player (Zoltan...yeah, that's his real name...) is is about 70% "mechanics-oriented" for characters. He likes to see stuff on his sheet and be able to easily equate them to dice roll success chances. Thankfully, he also doesn't like being too "powerful" and will purposefully reign himself in when he sees his character getting a bit out of hand. We're all used to his play style and know exactly what to expect. However... ;) ...the problem did crop up [I]constantly[/I] when we were playing our old PF game. That problem was all the time and effort that I, as DM, had to put into two things. First was what we call the "Rifts Problem". You know... [I]"So, what do you guys have in the party"..."A City Rat, a Ranger, a Ley Line Walker, a Glitter Boy, and a Dragon"..."Er....ok....uh...hmmm....".[/I] Basically, anything that was a challenge to him would wipe the rest of the party, and anything less was a cake walk for him. Power level variation was just too extreme. Second, and this carries over to my point above, is the annoyance I got every now and then when I would spend time and effort developing interesting hooks, NPC's, rival orders, special lore, etc for his new PrC he just gained, and then, after his second level in it, he just drops it for some other class because he only wanted the power the PrC granted at it's second level. Now that he has it, he could care less about his PrC. It was just dead weight. The rival student? "[I]Oh, yeah, ok Sandella. How about you stop dicking me around, I'll go to the guildmaster and tell him I resign, and that you should take my place. Cool?[/I]". What about that NPC villain who wants to kill/capture/corrupt the PC in order to settle some score with the Guild Master? "[I]Oh, so, right...you aren't part of them anymore? Uh...ok. Sorry for the trouble then. No hard feelings, right? C'ya![/I]". Or what about that map he found on the back of a painting in the guild hall? "[I]Oh! Right! Totally forgot about that thing! Something to do with an old book the guildmaster wanted? Hmmm...well, if he ponies up 1,000gp maybe we can go get it for him...discount for being my old teacher[/I]". In short, if you take away any repercussions from leaving a guild, then what's the point of trying to limit anything? In my humble opinion, if a PrC gives the PC a social advantage, leaving the PrC should nix that social advantage. Likewise if that PrC gives the PC a mechanical advantage, leaving that PrC should nix that mechanical advantage. Otherwise a PrC becomes nothing more than a name that houses restrictions to get some "kewl new powerz", and destroys utterly the entire point of a PrC; adding flavour and grounding to an ongoing campaign. All IMHO, of course. :) ^_^ Paul L. Ming [/QUOTE]
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