D&D 5E Prestige Classes

[shadowoflameth]

For our Homebrew game, I've been preparing prestige classes for those who are interested for our next campaign. Since Unearthed Arcana showed some guidelines and players who were in our 3.5 campaigns wanted to. I'm finding some easy to translate and others hard. Has anyone else done this? What was the result and impact on your game? What worked well or didn't?

 

[I'm A Banana]

For our Homebrew game, I've been preparing prestige classes for those who are interested for our next campaign. Since Unearthed Arcana showed some guidelines and players who were in our 3.5 campaigns wanted to. I'm finding some easy to translate and others hard. Has anyone else done this? What was the result and impact on your game? What worked well or didn't?

I like PrC's in principle, but finding them hard to implement in practice.

In principle, the goal for a PrC is to be a reward for a player that is both a notable accomplishment in the campaign world (hence, Prestige), and an identity that a character can grow into over the course of play rather than starting the game with.

This comes up against 5e's rather elegant XP system (which varies with level and tier to provide some intricate pacing) in much the same way that multiclassing does - taking a dip into a new class at level 2 (or 6) isn't the same thing as taking a dip into a new class at level 10 (or 15), and every level spent outside of your main class is delaying more powerful features (perhaps forever, depending on when the campaign ends).

To adhere to the principle, I've found that I'm actually kind of fond of using the magic item system instead of the level/XP system for PrC-style shenanigans.

First, as a "magic item," it can properly be considered a reward, and it doesn't need to balance or compete with other class features. It's OK if it's "too powerful" or "too weak."

Second, it limits the scope. Your fighter doesn't need to stop being a fighter just because he's a Knight of The Empire of Kyle.

Third, there's a scaling system built into it that isn't required - you can have a "common"-tier ability, an "uncommon" tier ability, etc., and getting access to one doesn't negate or require access to any others. If I get the reward at 18th level, I can get the "Legendary" ability without having to go through the others first. If I get the reward at 5th, I can get the "Uncommon" ability, and I don't need to then go into the "Rare" ability unless I'm really invested in it.

The only kind-of-hiccup is that in traditional D&D, magic items are meant, to a certain degree, drive the action and help define your character (hence, attunement). This does mean that, say, a "Prestige" that grants +1 to attack rolls with swords might crowd out +1 swords.

In principle, I'm cool paying that price.

In practice, well, if my players ever pick up the breadcrumbs to Prestige I'm putting down, I'll let you know.

(Seriously, how many levels do you have to have a shield that speaks Dwarven to you in your sleep before you try and find out what it's saying?!)

 

[nomotog]

Magic item prestige classes actually sound like a good idea.

I never thought of prestige classes as prestigious though. I think of them as more like half classes or classbites. Like of you have a neat class concept, but you don't have 20 levels worth of ideas, you make a prestige class.

 

[Curmudjinn]

Almost like a kit? You keep your class, but some of the mechanics are altered similar to a subclass. Or a kit upon a subclass? That would have a hint of gestalt in there, and could be a little more stable than a magic item suite.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Magic item prestige classes actually sound like a good idea.

I never thought of prestige classes as prestigious though. I think of them as more like half classes or classbites. Like of you have a neat class concept, but you don't have 20 levels worth of ideas, you make a prestige class.

Another idea I'm kind of fond of is "single-tier classes." So, like, you could start as a fighter (LV 1-4), then become a ranger (LV 5-10), then a "prestige ranger" (lets say something like an Arcane Archer, LV 11-16), and then finish it off with being an "epic ranger" (maybe loot a 4e-style epic destiny, LV 17-20). You might have prereqs so that someone could also start as a "scout" (LV 1-4 wilderness thief) then become a Ranger, and so on. You could have maybe a Paladin path for fighters and clerics...on and on....

The difficulty is the same difficulty facing traditional PrC's - 5e's levelling is tight. It is well-designed and nearly seamless. You will drastically affect the pacing if you do this. You'd have to essentially replace the subclasses, if not all classes wholesale to get it to work. That's a lot of babies you're throwing out with the bathwater, and it creates a barrier to acceptance. There's no way you're going to do as much testing of your system as WotC did with theirs.

So while I'm fond of the idea, I find it stuck in conceptual space.

"Magic Item PrC's" are a little easier to slide into an existing campaign if you find it's a cool idea.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

I haven't yet, but it is on my mind. However, my version of PrC's is going to be significantly more "campaign narrative oriented". Meaning a character has to actually do and acquire stuff before they are trained in the ways of [insert PrC]. Also, in my version of PrC's, a character must give up his regular class stuff for a PrC thing. This will be from the point he his accepted onward. Once you are in a PrC, you are in it for life. You can not 'switch back' to your original class, nor add another class (I don't use MC'ing anyway). This will mean that taking a PrC earlier on, rather than later, will result in a much more "PrC oriented" character. (e.g., a 15th level character who then manages to get accepted into a PrC will have less "PrC" stuff than if he had done so at 5th level).

How my version will work is basically like a "fancy Arch-Type", I guess. For example, a Fighter who has just completed the Journey of Death (been ritualistically killed and then raised from the dead), and has met all the other requirements of the PrC order, is now advancing as a "Death Touched Warrior" (the PrC name, lets say). He adventures and gets XP enough to hit level 11. He does not get his Fighter 11 thing...his Extra Attack. In stead, he gets one of the Death Touched Warrior abilities...say, "Death's Touch". Maybe the Death's Touch ability allows the Fighter to treat 1/2 of his normal weapon damage as Necromantic damage.

Anyway, that's what I'm going to be doing with them. In short, taking a PrC will change your characters capabilities...not 'add to them'. This will keep the whole min/max/munckinizing to a minimum, IMHO. I haven't worked out the details yet, but it will be something like that.

So I could convert a 3.x/PF PrC...but it wouldn't be much in the way of 'mechanical changes' so much as 'Flavourful Re-Colouring'. IMNSHO, PrC's were a cool idea...don't horribly, horribly wrong, and trying to just convert mechanics to mechanics is doomed to repeat the same mistakes (probably more-so, as 5e has a fairly solid BA going on...3.x/PF, not so much... ).

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Curmudjinn]

Hiya!

I haven't yet, but it is on my mind. However, my version of PrC's is going to be significantly more "campaign narrative oriented". Meaning a character has to actually do and acquire stuff before they are trained in the ways of [insert PrC]. Also, in my version of PrC's, a character must give up his regular class stuff for a PrC thing. This will be from the point he his accepted onward. Once you are in a PrC, you are in it for life. You can not 'switch back' to your original class, nor add another class (I don't use MC'ing anyway). This will mean that taking a PrC earlier on, rather than later, will result in a much more "PrC oriented" character. (e.g., a 15th level character who then manages to get accepted into a PrC will have less "PrC" stuff than if he had done so at 5th level).

How my version will work is basically like a "fancy Arch-Type", I guess. For example, a Fighter who has just completed the Journey of Death (been ritualistically killed and then raised from the dead), and has met all the other requirements of the PrC order, is now advancing as a "Death Touched Warrior" (the PrC name, lets say). He adventures and gets XP enough to hit level 11. He does not get his Fighter 11 thing...his Extra Attack. In stead, he gets one of the Death Touched Warrior abilities...say, "Death's Touch". Maybe the Death's Touch ability allows the Fighter to treat 1/2 of his normal weapon damage as Necromantic damage.

Anyway, that's what I'm going to be doing with them. In short, taking a PrC will change your characters capabilities...not 'add to them'. This will keep the whole min/max/munckinizing to a minimum, IMHO. I haven't worked out the details yet, but it will be something like that.

So I could convert a 3.x/PF PrC...but it wouldn't be much in the way of 'mechanical changes' so much as 'Flavourful Re-Colouring'. IMNSHO, PrC's were a cool idea...don't horribly, horribly wrong, and trying to just convert mechanics to mechanics is doomed to repeat the same mistakes (probably more-so, as 5e has a fairly solid BA going on...3.x/PF, not so much... ).

^_^

Paul L. Ming

You're essentially using 2e AD&D dual-classing. I hated the idea of losing my previous class forever and being stuck in a new one I may not enjoy.
Thankfully, 3e changed all of that.

 

[Shiroiken]

I would strongly recommend using Theme/Subclasses and Feats for Prestige Classes. They never seemed to work out well IME, especially for spellcasters.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

You're essentially using 2e AD&D dual-classing. I hated the idea of losing my previous class forever and being stuck in a new one I may not enjoy.
Thankfully, 3e changed all of that.

Toe-may-to, toe-mah-ta, I guess. I'd say "Unfortunately, 3e changed all of that".

I see a Prestige Class as a "higher calling" type of thing. Something that a character would stick with his entire life once he is "in the club", so to speak. Now, I'm not adverse to having a PC give up on his PrC in an extreme situation (sort of like a priest loosing his faith and stepping down as Bishop or whatever). I may allow a PC to "drop" a PrC and go back to his old ways (class), but all the PrC stuff he got would be 'lost' (re: no special stuff). There would also likely be repercussions for leaving a PrC (the "Death Touched Warriors" may not take kindly to someone they sponsored, killed, raised from the dead, and taught the secrets of their order...). Skills learned I could let him keep maybe...have to figure out a way to work that back in. Shouldn't be too hard for skills, but no way would I let a "Death Touched Warrior" keep his Death Touch attack, go back to Fighter, and keep gaining levels as a Fighter with all the special stuff he gained in his PrC. As I said..."replacement, not additional".

The thing I hated most about 3.x/PF PrC's was the never ending treadmill of "+1UP" stuff. Just look at virtually ANY "non-single-class-build" characters for 3.x and you will see meticulously chosen Feat chains, level-dips galore and PrC choice(s) to match. Those characters are almost never built to enhance the campaign or anyone else's enjoyment at the table; they are there almost exclusively to inflate the ego's of the character "builder" and try and game/win the system.

I know my words are a bit harsh, but I really hate the way MC'ing and PrC's turned out in 3.x/PF. Really. Really really. And, from the look of it, 5e's designers seem to be heading down the same path, more or less. In my games, if you want to play an epic hero...you have to play as an epic hero. I don't let a player get away with just picking a certain character 'build'; that never ends well for the PC or the player. You, the player, have to attempt heroic deeds, say heroic things, and behave in a heroic manner. Just saying "I have AC 26 and 3 attacks that do 122 DPS!" is going to get you nowhere on the "NPC's look up to you as a hero" scale in my games. This all rolls into my PrC mentality. Just trying to gain mechanical stuff and slapping "Death Touched Warrior 1st" after your class level isn't happening. You have to work for it, in game, in character.

But that's me. As your quote above indicates...you seem to favor the mechanical fun of building to get some preconceived concept. Fair enough, to each his/her own. Enjoy what you want and have fun!

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Curmudjinn]

Hiya!



Toe-may-to, toe-mah-ta, I guess. I'd say "Unfortunately, 3e changed all of that".

I see a Prestige Class as a "higher calling" type of thing. Something that a character would stick with his entire life once he is "in the club", so to speak. Now, I'm not adverse to having a PC give up on his PrC in an extreme situation (sort of like a priest loosing his faith and stepping down as Bishop or whatever). I may allow a PC to "drop" a PrC and go back to his old ways (class), but all the PrC stuff he got would be 'lost' (re: no special stuff). There would also likely be repercussions for leaving a PrC (the "Death Touched Warriors" may not take kindly to someone they sponsored, killed, raised from the dead, and taught the secrets of their order...). Skills learned I could let him keep maybe...have to figure out a way to work that back in. Shouldn't be too hard for skills, but no way would I let a "Death Touched Warrior" keep his Death Touch attack, go back to Fighter, and keep gaining levels as a Fighter with all the special stuff he gained in his PrC. As I said..."replacement, not additional".

The thing I hated most about 3.x/PF PrC's was the never ending treadmill of "+1UP" stuff. Just look at virtually ANY "non-single-class-build" characters for 3.x and you will see meticulously chosen Feat chains, level-dips galore and PrC choice(s) to match. Those characters are almost never built to enhance the campaign or anyone else's enjoyment at the table; they are there almost exclusively to inflate the ego's of the character "builder" and try and game/win the system.

I know my words are a bit harsh, but I really hate the way MC'ing and PrC's turned out in 3.x/PF. Really. Really really. And, from the look of it, 5e's designers seem to be heading down the same path, more or less. In my games, if you want to play an epic hero...you have to play as an epic hero. I don't let a player get away with just picking a certain character 'build'; that never ends well for the PC or the player. You, the player, have to attempt heroic deeds, say heroic things, and behave in a heroic manner. Just saying "I have AC 26 and 3 attacks that do 122 DPS!" is going to get you nowhere on the "NPC's look up to you as a hero" scale in my games. This all rolls into my PrC mentality. Just trying to gain mechanical stuff and slapping "Death Touched Warrior 1st" after your class level isn't happening. You have to work for it, in game, in character.

But that's me. As your quote above indicates...you seem to favor the mechanical fun of building to get some preconceived concept. Fair enough, to each his/her own. Enjoy what you want and have fun!

^_^

Paul L. Ming

I can agree with you on the +1 PrC leveling of 3e. My least favorite part of the flavor of prestige classes was all of the single-level mechanical dips, resulting in huge amounts of character classes. I realize why, but it threw away any flavor and specialness of the PrC'S.

Maybe new 5e prestige classes were 5 levels or so only, and you had to achieve all 5 levels before multi-classing to keep any special feature class benefits. Coming back to the class later, to finish it, could reinstate those benefits again until the quota is met.