D&D 5E Prestige Classes

[pming]

Hiya!

I can agree with you on the +1 PrC leveling of 3e. My least favorite part of the flavor of prestige classes was all of the single-level mechanical dips, resulting in huge amounts of character classes. I realize why, but it threw away any flavor and specialness of the PrC'S.

Maybe new 5e prestige classes were 5 levels or so only, and you had to achieve all 5 levels before multi-classing to keep any special feature class benefits. Coming back to the class later, to finish it, could reinstate those benefits again until the quota is met.

Y'see, now that's the kind of thinking that the designers at WotC need to have. They need to stop trying to rely on "what 3.x/PF/4e did" and more on "what do we want it to do now". I could get behind a "5-level-max" for PrC's, and needing to complete them in their entirety before jumping out...sort of like a "buy in" mechanic.

I could also see it work in a 'staggered' type of thing...requiring a level in Class A, then a Level in PrC, then back to Class A, then back to PrC, etc., up until you got your 5th level in that PrC. Then you were free to do whatever you wanted again. This could even open up the door for "Advanced Prestige Classes" that would be available to someone who advanced to level 5 in a particular PrC. I'm kind of thinking of 1e Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay's "Basic Career" and "Advanced Career" system (In short, you started in a basic career...like "Outlaw", then, once completed, you could move on to "Outlaw Chief"; in 5e it'd be "Death Warrior PrC" and then, once all 5 levels in it were attained, you could move on to "Death Dealer PrC").

Not the best solution (I'm an old grognard and much prefer the 1e/2e 'concurrent leveling' of multiclassed characters), but it's one that might help enforce how much of a serious undertaking a PrC is...they shouldn't be 'just like other classes, but with more requirements to enter'. That always felt like a cop out and one that favored the min/maxers over the roleplayers.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[nomotog]

Hiya!



Y'see, now that's the kind of thinking that the designers at WotC need to have. They need to stop trying to rely on "what 3.x/PF/4e did" and more on "what do we want it to do now". I could get behind a "5-level-max" for PrC's, and needing to complete them in their entirety before jumping out...sort of like a "buy in" mechanic.

I could also see it work in a 'staggered' type of thing...requiring a level in Class A, then a Level in PrC, then back to Class A, then back to PrC, etc., up until you got your 5th level in that PrC. Then you were free to do whatever you wanted again. This could even open up the door for "Advanced Prestige Classes" that would be available to someone who advanced to level 5 in a particular PrC. I'm kind of thinking of 1e Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay's "Basic Career" and "Advanced Career" system (In short, you started in a basic career...like "Outlaw", then, once completed, you could move on to "Outlaw Chief"; in 5e it'd be "Death Warrior PrC" and then, once all 5 levels in it were attained, you could move on to "Death Dealer PrC").

Not the best solution (I'm an old grognard and much prefer the 1e/2e 'concurrent leveling' of multiclassed characters), but it's one that might help enforce how much of a serious undertaking a PrC is...they shouldn't be 'just like other classes, but with more requirements to enter'. That always felt like a cop out and one that favored the min/maxers over the roleplayers.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

That sounds a lot like sub classes. What they could do is mark out five levels in each of the main classes as optional levels and then on that level you can take a level in your base class, or a level in a prestige class. You would place the optional levels in the base class on levels where you don't get a key ability, but you get something so the choice of picking up a new class is fair. It would be different then sub classes because you could pick up most any prestige class not just one made for your base class.

I kind of think subclasses are meant to stand in for prestige classes in 5ed, but as they are I don't like them.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I would strongly recommend using Theme/Subclasses and Feats for Prestige Classes. They never seemed to work out well IME, especially for spellcasters.

I think these are often viable, but there's some down-sides to each. Feats, forex, have the problem of default assumptions, and aren't great when we're talking about things that scale with level. Subclasses have to compete with other subclasses. Both useful tools in the toolbox, but I wouldn't say the answer to every situation!

 

[Curmudjinn]

I think these are often viable, but there's some down-sides to each. Feats, forex, have the problem of default assumptions, and aren't great when we're talking about things that scale with level. Subclasses have to compete with other subclasses. Both useful tools in the toolbox, but I wouldn't say the answer to every situation!

Those facts are why I am a little against prestige classes as subclasses. I don't think a character should stop being the class they are just to personify themselves with a prestige. Like being a Harper or a red wizard or something of that nature. I really think it should be some sort of template type situation that you can place on top of their current class and subclass.

 

[TwoSix]

Those facts are why I am a little against prestige classes as subclasses. I don't think a character should stop being the class they are just to personify themselves with a prestige. Like being a Harper or a red wizard or something of that nature. I really think it should be some sort of template type situation that you can place on top of their current class and subclass.

I think the exact nature of the "prestige" granted probably informs the depth of the mechanical complexity needed to realize it. Becoming a knight of Silverymoon might be a feat, or a small templated bonus. Joining the Shamans of the Doom Volcano so your physical form slowly becomes that of a fire elemental probably requires something with more dedication, so a whole new batch of class levels would make sense.

 

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

I actually like the idea of implementing prestige 'classes' as attuned magic item slots. Very elegant!

It has a few wonderful features:

1) No messing with class mechanics. As has been mentioned, these have been fine tuned. Their balance is already precarious.

2) An independent mechanic is most easily implemented, in part or in full.

3) In games where magic items don't belong, prestige classes of this kind slot in excellently. You don't *have* a Holy Defender; you *are* a Holy Defender. You don't *have* a Robe of the Archmage, you *are* an Archmage. As with all prestige classes, there are requirements! A skill proficiency here, a few quests there, an oath there....

4) Being a park ranger doesn't make you less of a ranger; being a tetragrammaton cleric doesn't make you less of a cleric; etc.

5) Balance is comparable to asking "am I willing to let magic item X into my campaign at this time?"

6) A prestige class can drive the action at least as well as the endless search for magic items. Nothing wrong with finding an item, but perhaps you prefer to return it to the temple, or destroy it to free a spirit (or kill it), or whatever. As you meet requirements and gain levels, the prestige class (that fills a magic item slot) can do more.

7) BTW, the same thing can be done with Feats.

8) Classic prestige classes still suck for most full spellcasters, unless they advance the original class' spellcasting progression, which is the kind of inelegant mechanic that D&D5 seems to have done away with. But this kind of prestige class bolts nicely onto anything.

The OP's idea is elegant. Why go back?

Anyway,

Ken

 

[I'm A Banana]

FWIW, I don't hate the idea of PrC's-as-Feats, and it's totally the case that some smaller or less unique PrC's ride in the Feat space more easily (like, I could totally see a "Mystic Theurge" Feat that enhanced multiclass cleric/wizards). There's just a few more hurdles to clear: you need to compete with existing feats and with ASI's, and you need to appear at particular levels. Both of those are barriers to entry.

Personally, taking Prestige is something I'd like to encourage my players to do, based on the idea that PrC's link them more closely to an in-world identity and role. Giving up a feat - or a class level - is a big sacrifice. With attunement, they don't make much of a sacrifice. If some magic item comes along that IS better than their Prestige, they can just attune to that magic item instead, and in the meantime, they can use their Prestige. And since the DM controls when magic items enter play, they can personally compare and contrast before the item comes in, if this is a decision they want to consider.

 

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

A typical Prestige Class might consist of four tiers, which corresponds to the four levels of magic items.

Gaining access to each tier typically involve:

* An ongoing Commitment, which might be an oath of fealty, a code of conduct, or something of that nature. A knight of the round table swears fealty to King Arthur and swears to fight for good. A wizard of the ancient guild swears to seek out spells and knowledge and share completely with the guild, to never destroy knowledge of any kind, and to accept and provide wisdom according to his stature. A pirate swears to follow the code and eschew soap.

* One Achievement per tier. This is usually an adventure of some kind. Kill something, find something, destroy something, do something, start a war, stop a war, etc.

* Be of a certain level. Typically level 4/8/12/16, but this might shift (3/7/13/17, or whatever). After all, you cannot be a 4th level archmage... but if you demonstrate responsibility, the council will grant you access to the great library, teach you the outer mysteries of the guild, honor you with important (and rewarding) endeavors and gift you a ring of pure unobtainium bearing the council's sigil as a mark of rank. This will doubtlessly lead to greater things. If you persevere in wisdom and power, one day you might join the Inner Council as a true Archmage.

Anyway,

Ken

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

In Third Edition, Prestige Classes ended up fulfilling multiple purposes, which is why there are such differing views of them.

A lot of prestige classes simply provided more mechanical options. Subclasses and Feats can easily support most of these concepts. 5E has a rather robust framework for mechanical variation.

Some were focused on the prestige aspect, being options you can take for being part of a given organization. For these, I think the game could use something similar to backgrounds that you can gain through play. They could grant you some proficiencies and a trait, and require that you be part of the faction or organization and take some required downtime to train. They could also open up new options for feats, spells, maneuvers, etc. This lets them be acquired organically through play, while still tying into the class and level structure for later development.

 

[Nytmare]

Joining the Shamans of the Doom Volcano so your physical form slowly becomes that of a fire elemental probably requires something with more dedication, so a whole new batch of class levels would make sense.

DUDE!? What's the first rule of Shamans of the Doom Volcano?!