D&D General Requesting Advice on FR Pantheon

[dave2008]

Huh. I remember aspects of deities being a thing back in 3e, but with the power level inverted from your suggestion – basically, aspects being lesser forms of avatars, and usually having a challenge rating appropriate for when Sean Connery shows up at Wimbledon (10ish). You could eventually encounter an Aspect of Tiamat in Red Hand of Doom, and she'd be CR 13 – high for an aspect, the version in the Miniatures Handbook was CR 10. From an OOC perspective, the point of aspects was that gods are cool, but it wouldn't do to have actual gods or even their avatars showing up in a miniatures skirmish game, so here's a monster that looks like the god and has thematic abilities, but is more reasonably scaled.

I skipped 3e. In 4e gods only had aspects, not avatars, though they seemed to function identically to avatars. That is were I first came to the idea of 2 different representations of gods. I did debate which word should be used for which version. I decided on using avatars for the less powerful version as it, in my mind, was closer to what people expect from an avatar in D&D. An avatar uses standard D&D rules, but an aspect uses unique immortal level D&D rules. So anyone can grab an avatar stat block and run with it. You need another set of rules to run an aspect correctly.

 

[Zardnaar]

No, there’s no need for that. I can write new piety rewards for each just fine. I was asking for advice on two things:

(1) What gods I should include, since I want players to be able to select from a handout I will create to resemble Theros’s player-facing section on gods. They’re new to FR and more than 20 gods will likely be unwieldy. The gods don’t need to map to Theros’s or anything, but they need to cover players’ varied needs, since each player is picking one god as patron at character creation. I want to make sure there’s a god for everyone without overwhelming them with a hundred choices.

(2) What kind of information (lore) I should include on the handout for each god besides the piety mechanic. I want players to have a good sense about their god’s character and place before they start the game, but also not feel overwhelmed. When playing, is it useful to know goals, divine relationships, myths, holidays, etc? If you created a handout on gods in the past, what was well-received and what was too much/too little?

Are you familiar with the Faith's and Avatars book?

There is an old list of the 20 most prominent kids. Nothings really changed except Tiamat and Lolth probably need to be added.

Dead 3 are classic villain and as well.

FR Adventures
Auril
Azuth
Besheba
Chauntea
Lyrics
Deneir
Eldath
Good
Helm
Immaterial
Lathander
Leira
Liira
Lovitar
Malar
Mask
Mielekki
Milil
Mystra
Oghma
Selune
Shar
Silvanus
Sune
Talona
Talons
Tempus
Torm
Tymora
Tyr
Umberlee
Waukeen

That list+ dead 3, Tiamat and Lolth.

A very truncated list go with the class deities.

Artificer-Gond
Barbarians-
Bards-Milil
Cleric-
Druids-Silvanus
Fighter- Tempus
Monk-
Paladin Torm
Rangers Miekekki,
Rogues- Mask
Sorcerer-
Warlocks-
Wizards Azuth,

That's 8, dead 3 make 11, 13 with Lolth and Tiamat.

Last 6 Lathendar, Tyr, Mystra, Tymora, Selune and Shar for 21.

Lolth can be cut if Drow aren't prominent.

 

[Voadam]

Also for reference a bunch of the FR gods were originally adaptations of gods from the 1e Deities & Demigods book including a number of Greek gods. I do not have Theros but my understanding is that it is a fantasy alt Greek myths thing.

The Greek God adaptation ones I remember off the top of my head:

Lathander - Apollo
Sune - Aphrodite
Mask - Hermes
Gond - Hephaestus
Tyche - Tyche

 

[Zardnaar]

Also for reference a bunch of the FR gods were originally adaptations of gods from the 1e Deities & Demigods book including a number of Greek gods. I do not have Theros but my understanding is that it is a fantasy alt Greek myths thing.

The Greek God adaptation ones I remember off the top of my head:

Lathander - Apollo
Sune - Aphrodite
Mask - Hermes
Gond - Hephaestus
Tyche - Tyche

Makes sense it's a fairly direct comparison.

Lathendar basically tge Sun god most editions. Technically Amaunator who may be Lathendar and no one cares about him anyway.

 

[Amphytrion]

You could make it that each god has a yin/yang aspect of duality - most folk promote/favor/worship the "good" form, and fear/appease the negative aspect hoping to keep it at bay, perhaps calling down the "bad" side on individuals they wish to curse. The "alternate" names are simply titles applied when these deities take on certain aspects.

I enjoy this as a worldbuilding idea, and have put it considerable thought, but ultimately I think it doesn't lend itself to very clearly-defined gods and divine relationships. If players need to pick a god at character creation, the matter shouldn't be too esoteric.

I think aspects are fine when the deities are basically the same. Talos and Gruumsh are nearly identical, down to the One Eye, so it makes sense to unite them. Something too multifaceted like the Roman goddess Diana Triformis would be alright for one god (like Pathfinder attempts to do with Norgorber), but for all of them would probably be too much.

I still very much appreciate the idea and advice, and may use for another campaign in the future.

 

[Amphytrion]

Many thanks to all who responded thus far.

Here's how the List looked on Page 2, a few days ago:

Spoiler: List of Gods

BAHAMUT, god of justice, wisdom, peace, rulership, selflessness, and redemption.
TIAMAT, goddess of pride, power, wealth, greed, avarice, arrogance and might.

CHAUNTEA, goddess of home, hearth, agriculture, familial love and simple joys. Known to the halflings as Yondalla.
LATHANDER, god of the dawn, spring, beginnings, renewal, exuberance, youth, athletics, and arts. Known to the elves as Corellon Larethian.
SELÛNE, goddess of the moon, autumn, starlight, travelers, wanderers, dreams and divination. Known to the elves as Sehanine Moonbow.
MYSTRA, goddess of magic, spellcasting, and the Weave.
KELEMVOR, god of the dead, judgment of souls, natural ends, and closing of cycles.
OGHMA, god of knowledge, logic, thought, ideas, reasoning and learning.
SILVANUS, god of nature, fauna, flora, and harmony with the wilds.
TEMPUS, god of war, warriors, battle, and battlefields.
BANE, god of tyranny, strife, conquest, and order through oppression. Known to the goblinoids as Maglubiyet.
TALOS, god of destruction, savagery, storms, and natural disasters. Known to the orcs as Gruumsh.
SHAR, goddess of darkness, loss, forgetfulness, and oblivion.

MORADIN, god of the forge, craftsmanship, vocation, clan values and dwarven tradition.
GARL GLITTERGOLD, god of luck, humor, trickery, pranks, wit, gems, and cooperation.
ASMODEUS, god of indulgence, temptation, contracts and deception.

@Xenophon223 had argued for Tymora, and I understand her popularity--but as @James Gasik points out, she comes bundled with Beshaba. I'm hoping Garl Glittergold takes care of luck. Is there something about Tymora's appeal that Garl just doesn't do? If there is, maybe it's worth reconsidering.

@Zardnaar kindly posted a different list from Faiths and Avatars, which I wasn't familiar with. I very much appreciate the idea of thinking about it in terms of classes, which may be how players approach it. That's a very strong argument for Gond, Mielikki and Mask.

Per @cbwjm's advice, I looked at FR 4e's book, which does provide a list of 18 major gods. Gods included in 4e but not in the list above are Aumanator, Cyric, Ghaunadaur, Lolth, and Torm.

• Amaunator is really a non-entity. He promptly returned to obscurity the moment Lathander came back.
• Cyric is a FR classic and has great divine relationships, though his portfolio is hollowed out. I do think there is value in including a mad god, but it'll probably be between him and Ghaunadaur, who also appeared, and is really Tharizdûn in disguise.
• Lolth is a classic staple for drow. The reason I hadn't yet included her was because I felt it opened the floodgates. If Lolth makes it, does Laduguer (duergar)? Does Rillifane (wood elves) or Deep Sashelas (sea elves)? I suppose Lolth is simply much more iconic than the others.
• Torm made the 4e list because Tyr was dead, though I like him and his chivalric vibe. If there is one slot for the LG deity, it's probably Bahamut, but I could also include some of the Triad (Ilmater, Torm, Tyr).

The 4e FR book also provides tables with more gods beyond the first 18, which I may do as well. So there would be a handout with some deities explained in great detail (the core list), and a table with the other deities that will always tie back to at least one of the deities in the core list. This way, there is a list of gods all players will know, and then other minor players they can ask more about on a need to know basis. Maybe even split them into subgroups for organization's sake, as @Staffan suggested.

I will ponder all this, revise the list and post a new one tomorrow.

Beyond the make-up of the list, if anyone has opinions of what kind of lore is useful when choosing a god for a divine-centric campaign, I'd love to read it. Currently, my intention is to mimic Theros's structure: influence, personality, divine relationships, key myths, then random tables for ideals and callings. @Voadam, I am taking into consideration your suggestion for no listing of typical classes (or to alter the wording around that), thank you for the feedback.

 

[cbwjm]

Torm made the 4e list because Tyr was dead, though I like him and his chivalric vibe. If there is one slot for the LG deity, it's probably Bahamut, but I could also include some of the Triad (Ilmater, Torm, Tyr).

This has put the image of Torm and Bahamut flying into battle, Torm as a dragon rider, striking fear into their enemies.