D&D General The purpose of deity stats in D&D.

[Alzrius]

DDG says that a cleric must be of the same alignment as their deity (p 6):

WORSHIPPER'S ALIGN: This refers to the general alignment of those who worship, adore or propitiate the deity. This does not necessarily apply to the alignment of the deity's clerics, which must be identical with their patron's.​

3E was more my preference, allowing for a "one-step away" rule...but only for clerics, as I recall (I personally made it apply to all divine spellcasters).

 

[dave2008]

DDG says that a cleric must be of the same alignment as their deity (p 6):

WORSHIPPER'S ALIGN: This refers to the general alignment of those who worship, adore or propitiate the deity. This does not necessarily apply to the alignment of the deity's clerics, which must be identical with their patron's.​

In the 1985 Dragon article that was mentioned upthread, Gygax says that

we are interested only in deities with followers dwelling on the Prime Material Plane of the campaign. These faithful give the various deities power. Of course, this idea is not new. It has been put forth often by others, whether seriously or as a device of literature. It serves as an excellent game device as well. (Dragon 97, p 8)​

In an earlier issue (Dragon 92, December 1984, p 8), an article by Paul Vernon - "First, spread the faith: Clerics need to keep their mission in mind" - says that "The power of the gods is often proportional to the number of worshipers they enjoy". In the same issue (p 12), an article by Bruce Barber - "The more, the merrier: How clerics can 'find' new followers" - similarly says that

it seems reasonable to assume that the power of the gods, and perhaps their continued existence, stems from the number of worshipers that the deity can claim as his or her own. In a fantasy gaming milieu that utilizes many gods, this theory makes perfect sense.​

I'm pretty sure these articles were the first time I encountered the idea, but as per Gygax's remark it seems likely to me that they're drawing on earlier works.

Thank you for the references. I knew it appeared in Dragon (and IIRC in some other splat books), but I was pretty sure it was not in DDG and as far as I could see in my quick review my memory was correct. I was also pretty sure it was an idea developed independently from IRL mythology or religion, and that also appears to be the case.

 

[dave2008]

2e at least allowed different cleric alignments from the deity, in many cases at least. It was still a curated list of alignments though, such as the priests of Bast who were allowed to be any non-evil.

3E was more my preference, allowing for a "one-step away" rule...but only for clerics, as I recall (I personally made it apply to all divine spellcasters).

In the 5e Theros book, the book with the most deity information, it allows a great degree of flexibility in alignment:

Heliod’s Champions​

Alignment: Usually lawful, often good

Suggested Classes: Cleric, fighter, monk, paladin

Suggested Cleric Domains: Light

Suggested Backgrounds: Acolyte, athlete, noble, soldier

Champions of Heliod are typically either exemplars of light, law, and truth or conflicted heroes motivated by revenge and sworn vows. Most can’t imagine serving those they consider lesser gods.

and of course the 2024 DMG does as well:

People can worship a god without obeying that god’s tenets or conforming to the god’s presumed alignment. People from all walks of life might participate in the annual festival of innocent mischief associated with a trickster god—even people whose alignment is generally lawful and opposed to the trickster’s teachings. To stave off disease, good-hearted people might make offerings to appease the wrath of a god associated with plague. Even Cleric characters don’t need to have any particular alignment to serve their gods.

 

[pemerton]

3E was more my preference, allowing for a "one-step away" rule...but only for clerics, as I recall (I personally made it apply to all divine spellcasters).

3E druids can be N. NG, NE, LN or CN.

 

[Voadam]

DDG says that a cleric must be of the same alignment as their deity (p 6):

WORSHIPPER'S ALIGN: This refers to the general alignment of those who worship, adore or propitiate the deity. This does not necessarily apply to the alignment of the deity's clerics, which must be identical with their patron's.

1e has a bunch to say on clerics and alignments, not all of it is consistent.

From the 1e PH page 20:

The cleric can be of any alignment (q.v.) save (true) neutral (see Druid hereafter) alignment, depending upon that of the deity the cleric serves.

Unclear whether that means it must match the deity's or be within a selection depending on the deity.

But the 1e DMG:

Page 38:

Each cleric must have his or her own deity, so when a new player opts to become a cleric (including a druid), you must inform them as to which deities exist in your campaign milieu and allow the individual to select which one of them he or she will serve. This will not necessarily establish the alignment of the cleric, so at the same time the cleric player character should also state his or her ethos (not necessarily to the other players).

Sounds like it does not need to match.

Page 39:

In talking about clerics changing deities: "Any change of alignment which causes such a deity change" which sounds like sometimes will sometimes won't.

 

[Alzrius]

3E druids can be N. NG, NE, LN or CN.

Yeah, and 3E paladins could only be LG (just like 1E and 2E paladins). I just preferred to make them, druids, and every other divine spellcaster obey the "one step away" rule concerning their god's alignment. Otherwise you get stuff like "my paladin serves Asmodeus, because nothing in the paladin class listing says that's not allowed."

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

1e has a bunch to say on clerics and alignments, not all of it is consistent.

From the 1e PH page 20:

The cleric can be of any alignment (q.v.) save (true) neutral (see Druid hereafter) alignment, depending upon that of the deity the cleric serves.

Unclear whether that means it must match the deity's or be within a selection depending on the deity.

But the 1e DMG:

Page 38:

Each cleric must have his or her own deity, so when a new player opts to become a cleric (including a druid), you must inform them as to which deities exist in your campaign milieu and allow the individual to select which one of them he or she will serve. This will not necessarily establish the alignment of the cleric, so at the same time the cleric player character should also state his or her ethos (not necessarily to the other players).

Sounds like it does not need to match.

Page 39:

In talking about clerics changing deities: "Any change of alignment which causes such a deity change" which sounds like sometimes will sometimes won't.

Wait, the rules don't all agree with each other in 1e? GYGAX!!!!!!!! (Great topic, btw).

I don't want to go back through the thread to see if it has already been brought up, and if it has, I apologize. But Deities & Demigods has a definitive stance which somehow is tucked away.

If you are a normal person, and for to the section about Clerics and Deities (pp. 9-10) and read it, you will notice that it doesn't say anything about alignment, just transgressions, the need to advance the deity's interests, etc. So, should be good to go, right?

NOT SO FAST!

On page 6, in the explanatory notes for the Deity's stat blocks, it explains alignment (although deities are not constrained to follow their alignment) and then the Worshipper's Align. It says that this is the general alignment for those who follow the deity (but not all). BUT IT DOESN'T APPLY TO CLERICS, because they have to match the deity's alignment. But it's phrased really badly. Here-

WORSHIPER'S ALIGN: This refers to the general alignment of those who worship, adore or propitiate the deity. This does not necessarily apply to the alignment of the deity’s clerics, which must be identical with their patron’s.

(Underline is mine)

First, propitiate? Hell to the yeah! But second .... necessarily? Why not just say "does not apply" without any possible caveat? Ugh.

To recap- according to this book-
1. Worshippers of a deity should look to the "WORSHIPPER'S ALIGN" section. Which has the alignment of the worshippers. Except when it doesn't (sometimes it uses classes or other things instead of alignment, like "chaotic neutral and thieves") Heck, Hera doesn't have alignment for worshippers - she is worshipped by wives and intriguers. Oh. Ignore that. Anyway, it doesn't apply to all worshippers.

2. Clerics, however, must match the deity's alignment!

3. However however, the deity does not have to match the deity's alignment. Suck it, Cleric.

 

[James Gasik]

Wait, the rules don't all agree with each other in 1e? GYGAX!!!!!!!! (Great topic, btw).

I don't want to go back through the thread to see if it has already been brought up, and if it has, I apologize. But Deities & Demigods has a definitive stance which somehow is tucked away.

If you are a normal person, and for to the section about Clerics and Deities (pp. 9-10) and read it, you will notice that it doesn't say anything about alignment, just transgressions, the need to advance the deity's interests, etc. So, should be good to go, right?

NOT SO FAST!

On page 6, in the explanatory notes for the Deity's stat blocks, it explains alignment (although deities are not constrained to follow their alignment) and then the Worshipper's Align. It says that this is the general alignment for those who follow the deity (but not all). BUT IT DOESN'T APPLY TO CLERICS, because they have to match the deity's alignment. But it's phrased really badly. Here-

WORSHIPER'S ALIGN: This refers to the general alignment of those who worship, adore or propitiate the deity. This does not necessarily apply to the alignment of the deity’s clerics, which must be identical with their patron’s.

(Underline is mine)

First, propitiate? Hell to the yeah! But second .... necessarily? Why not just say "does not apply" without any possible caveat? Ugh.

To recap- according to this book-
1. Worshippers of a deity should look to the "WORSHIPPER'S ALIGN" section. Which has the alignment of the worshippers. Except when it doesn't (sometimes it uses classes or other things instead of alignment, like "chaotic neutral and thieves") Heck, Hera doesn't have alignment for worshippers - she is worshipped by wives and intriguers. Oh. Ignore that. Anyway, it doesn't apply to all worshippers.

2. Clerics, however, must match the deity's alignment!

3. However however, the deity does not have to match the deity's alignment. Suck it, Cleric.

I'm confused. How could a Deity not match their own alignment?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I'm confused. How could a Deity not match their own alignment?

Do you question a DEITY?

I thought not. What are you gonna do about it? Huh? Deities don't listen to the alignment police.


(Basically, mortals don't know what deities are up to, so they don't have to act in accord with the alignment that they have.)

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I'm confused. How could a Deity not match their own alignment?

It's a divine mystery!