Price update for Blindfold of True Darkness

[Pyrex]

So, do all your combats take place in 20' by 20' rooms?

No, but very few indoor encounters take place in rooms larger than 60'x60'. Quite a few outdoor encounters (especially in wooded areas) have an encounter radius of <60'.

The times when (tactically) you need to see beyond 60' are a significant minority and you can then take the Blindfold off.

Not to mention that in the dungeon, many parties try to operate by Darkvision, limiting the party to 60' of visibility anyway. Underground the Blindfold is not only better than Goggles of Darkvision, they're cheaper.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I do not need spend a standard action to put on a magic shield. Or an item of clothing, like a magic cloak. Or a helm, magic or not. Why would it be different for a blindfold?

Use activated items are not usually activated by standard actions, although some are. Worn items are generally activated by being worn.

I did not see anything about 1 foot features in the description of the DMG. Personally, I would love it to be true. As I understand it, Blindsight is unnecessarily uberpowerful.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I do not need spend a standard action to put on a magic shield. Or an item of clothing, like a magic cloak. Or a helm, magic or not. Why would it be different for a blindfold?

In fact, I don't see the action required to wear or unwear ANYTHING, except magic weapons and shields, which both require a move action (or are bundled with a move action). Or armour, which tends to be measured in 5s or 10s of combat rounds.

However I do see something that says "activate a magic item other than a potion or oil", and it says that it's a standard action.

So - I think saying "it's a standard action to wear or unwear a piece of clothing, magic or no" is probably being generous. Usually you'd also have to get said piece of clothing out - but I'll let you skip that 'cause you're wearing it on your head.

Use activated items are not usually activated by standard actions, although some are. Worn items are generally activated by being worn.

I did not see anything about 1 foot features in the description of the DMG.

From special abilities and effects, blindsight:
Blindsight (Ex): This extraordinary ability is similar to blindsense, but is far more discerning. Using nonvisual senses, such as sensitivity to vibrations, keen smell, acute hearing, or echolocation, a creature with blindsight maneuvers and fights as well as a sighted creature.

This ability makes invisibility, darkness, and most kinds of concealment irrelevant (though it still can’t see ethereal creatures), though the creature must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object. The ability’s range is specified in the creature’s descriptive text. The creature usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice creatures within range of its blindsight ability. Unless noted otherwise, blindsight is continuous, and the creature need do nothing to use it. Some forms of blindsight, however, must be triggered as a free action. If so, this is noted in the creature’s description. If a creature must trigger its blindsight ability, the creature gains the benefits of blindsight only during its turn. This ability operates out to a range specified in the creature description.

* Blindsight never allows a creature to distinguish color or visual contrast. A creature cannot read with blindsight.
* Blindsight does not subject a creature to gaze attacks (even though darkvision does).
* Blinding attacks do not penalize creatures using blindsight.
* Deafening attacks thwart blindsight if it relies on hearing.
* Blindsight works underwater but not in a vacuum.
* Blindsight negates displacement and blur effects.

From aiming a spell, line of effect:
Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

...
spell specific stuff, cut.
...

An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell’s line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell’s line of effect.


This is the only reference in the game that defines line of effect. I doubt that the exception for 1-foot barriers should be discarded simply because blindsight is not a spell, but if you do think so, then blindsight gets worse (not to mention wierd...)

Personally, I would love it to be true. As I understand it, Blindsight is unnecessarily uberpowerful.

That's the best I can do. If someone else can find another reference for "line of effect", then please do so - I'm limited to the SRD currently.

 

[Pyrex]

You've pretty much got line of effect covered.

Blindsight is (uber)good, but doesn't let you see through walls.

 

[HeavyG]

An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell’s line of effect.

That is not the same as "a gap less than a foot width", though. If a door is 8 feet high and 2 inches ajar, the whole door doesn't count as interrupting blind sight. Line of effect is in the majority of cases less restricting than line of sight (as evidenced by the "It’s like line of sight (...) except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight" part).

Also, in a dungeon, only low-light vision plus a very good light source is going to let you see beyond 60 feet anyway, even if you continually find yourself in huge rooms.

Blindsight is (uber)good, but doesn't let you see through walls.

In 3.0, that was actually debated on this message board, IIRC.

It's clear now, though.

 

[thorian]

Blindsight is a great ability with few limitations. Using the DMG provided guidelines (page 285, table 7-33) for crafting wondrous items we come up with the following:

Use activated or continuous = spell level * caster level * 2000gp
The 4th level spell Improved Blindsight from Savage Species gives 60’ blindsight.
The duration is 1 minute/level which results in a x2 multiplier according to footnote 2.

So we get:

112000gp = 4 * 7 * 2000gp * 2

The cost needs to be adjusted downward since the item precludes using other vision. I would say a 50% reduction is in order for a final price of 56000gp.


As for removing the blindfold, a move equivalent action is all that is needed to slide it up onto one’s forehead or back down to re-engage blindsight. No standard action is needed to activate the item since it is a continuous item like a cloak of resistance.

 

[Lasher Dragon]

So it begs the question....

What exactly were the writers smoking when they priced the original blindfold?

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

We've had a character using blindsight 60-ft for over a year now in place of normal vision. I must say that it is much more of an advantage than a hindrance, even with the limited range (the character can always move to expand his field of vision). I'd say the price in the A&EG is too low, but I dunno by how much. I wouldn't say a factor of 10. But then, the blindfold can be removed so it is much more powerful than the character we were playing with.

The problem with blindsight is that it's hard to adjudicate how such vision affects daily life. I can probably count on one hand how often it was important for the character to be unable to determine colour or some other minor visual detail. It's all too easy for the character to use the blindsight almost exclusively and just rely on what the other players are seeing to his or her advantage. If everyone was using blindsight, it might be a little better b/c then the DM could leave out certain visual aspects.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Also, in a dungeon, only low-light vision plus a very good light source is going to let you see beyond 60 feet anyway, even if you continually find yourself in huge rooms.

I have a character adventuring some in the Underdark. Yes, we find a number of large caverns. But we also have plenty of characters with Lowlight and Darkvision. I have found we very, very rarely see anything useful beyond 60' unless are aggressive with our light sources -- we prefer not too because that makes us a fat target unless we really light the entire room.

Half or more of the party is blind past 60 feet in most encounters, even when longer distances are relevant.

Occasionally we use Dancing Lights to get a better view on something up ahead, but that almost always has fair warning to the entire party. So removing an item is easy enough.