Wulf Ratbane
Adventurer
Hard8Staff said:
Which explains where the Orc got it from.
I agree with the sentiment. Unless WOTC works to increase the core audience, they'll stop seeing the benefits of the smaller d20 publishers.
Wulf
Print Run numbers
- Thread starter Dread0395
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Which explains where the Orc got it from.
I agree with the sentiment. Unless WOTC works to increase the core audience, they'll stop seeing the benefits of the smaller d20 publishers.
Wulf
Mystic Eye
First Post
I agree and disagree with this. WOTC is certainly the largest influencer of generating new folks entering this market space. I would be curious to know how they address "pull" marketing techniques (other than fan based magazines and novels) and genre/ gametype cross over (Magic CCG to D&D RPG as an example). This is how they would traditionally increase the market segment in my mind, by drawing from their other areas of inlfuence. Also, I wonder what Hasbro is doing to go after their more traditional toy and board game markets to bring them into CCGs and RPGs. I can see a few ways, the D&D clue game, the FR TV series, but I would love to be a fly on the wall for their market strategy sessions.
The way I disagree is that I believe (just MHO)we can influence a market shift as well. Maybe not as massive as the overlords themselves but we are numerous. How many publishers run demos at their local stores and specifically try to target non-RPG. non-d20 players for demos? Probably some, and they are generating some "pull" into the d20 market, it all adds up.
How many d20 publishers, other than those already established in other hobby/ game market segments, are planning a break out of d20? This will, inevitably, draw some folks into your d20 offering. We are going to debut one or two non-d20 items this year and hope to pull some other markets to our brand and get them to play d20/ D&D. So, we CAN do our parts to influence this and I hope we all do.
I am not being overly optimistic, these are traditional marketing ploys that work in the real world and there is no reason they can't work in our fantasy world either.
Wulf Ratbane said:
So the orc's pie was really made of roleplaying gamers?
Wow, Monte's brain is twister than I thought!
I disagree with you, at least a bit, Wulf. I think demos in stores can bring new gamers to RPG. For example, imagine the typical "I don't like fantasy so I don't like D&D. I like superhero comics" comic reader that finds in his comic-game store a demo of, let's say, Morrus' future d20 Superheroes game...
I think well prepared "demo packs" from small published can help the hobby, can help getting a bigger pie... and can give them a bigger share of the pie.
Horacio said:
I agree with Horacio on this one. WoTC will work to bring in new players but the small publishers need to also do their "marketing" as well. When I walk into a store to buy and all I have heard about is the new WoTC product why would a small publisher expect I will buy anything from them?
Each publisher needs to market their product and needs to help me understand how they have something I can not get somewhere else.
One of the interesting trends to watch will be what products still sell and make the small publisher money. Right now I have seen a mass of copycat products in the market and I do not think that will work. How many "fighter" or "rogue" books do we need? How many publishers can put our adventures and expect to see sales? After a while there will be a saturation point for those kinds of products.
I expect there to be some who will find success with alternative subjects, other genre games, and full developed worlds will make the cut. And do not kid yourselves a cut will come.
I know I have set aside some of my budget for d20 Traveller and the Epic-Level book. If a publisher wants some of my money there needs to be a reason to buy presented to me. Even if a book is said to be "good" but not great is a reason for me to pass in many cases. Publishers who have shown me something different or special will get my money.
dafrca
It's precisely because the number of pie bakers has outstipped the public's interest in pie that resources like this web site, Gaming Frontiers (a great "sampler" from a variety of d20 companies) and the news section of Polyhedron are important tools to help consumers decide which products are best for them.
The glut isn't going to last forever, in my opinion, and I suspect the top handful of d20 publishers will see their numbers rise as they begin to foster fans who will follow their work. Those folks only have so much money, though, so if Joe Bob is buying every single Dragonstar product sight undseen, that means he has less money to spend on a new product from an "untested" company.
It's interesting to see a couple of the smaller companies hitching their wagons to an established brand like Dragonstar that has the backing of a larger company (in this case, FFG). I think that's a great way for Mystic Eye to drag new folks to their company. If their Dragonstar adventures are cool, those new customers probably will check out the company's non-Dragonstar offerings.
I wouldn't be at all surprised to see more of this type of thing over the next year or so. In fact, I think this might be the next trend in d20 gaming, particularly so far as the smaller companies are concerned.
--Erik Mona
Editor, Polyhedron
The glut isn't going to last forever, in my opinion, and I suspect the top handful of d20 publishers will see their numbers rise as they begin to foster fans who will follow their work. Those folks only have so much money, though, so if Joe Bob is buying every single Dragonstar product sight undseen, that means he has less money to spend on a new product from an "untested" company.
It's interesting to see a couple of the smaller companies hitching their wagons to an established brand like Dragonstar that has the backing of a larger company (in this case, FFG). I think that's a great way for Mystic Eye to drag new folks to their company. If their Dragonstar adventures are cool, those new customers probably will check out the company's non-Dragonstar offerings.
I wouldn't be at all surprised to see more of this type of thing over the next year or so. In fact, I think this might be the next trend in d20 gaming, particularly so far as the smaller companies are concerned.
--Erik Mona
Editor, Polyhedron
Monte At Home
Explorer
What I'd like to see (actually, I don't want to see it) is actual data that supports "things are bad for d20 right now." It would seem to me that the d20 pie is just as big as ever, if not probably bigger. It's just being divided up in smaller ways. I'd wager (but I don't know) that the number of d20 products that are sold now are actually more than a year ago, but the number from an individual publisher is smaller. Some individuals might be hurting, but if d20 were one big company, I think it would still be a huge success story.
On this thread's other topic, I believe that what d20 can do, rather than drawing in new customers, is keep current customers playing longer. When I was at WotC and looked at the marketing data, the conclusion that I drew was that retaining customers could grow the market/customer base as much as bringing in new customers (and it's actually probably easier and cheaper to keep a customer playing than to recruit a new one).
The math is simple. If 10,000 new players start playing each year, but 10,000 people quit each year (for whatever reason), you could increase the first number or decrease the second for the same effect. (It's more complex than that of course, with other factors, such as the more people you keep from dropping out, the more people they recruit on their own, and the idea that someone who's been playing for longer is more likely to buy a supplement than someone who is brand new, etc. etc. These factors indicate to me, in fact, that decreasing the second number is more important than increasing the first.)
That was, in fact, the reason that made me realize that d20 was good for the hobby overall, because it is through d20 that we will keep customers engaged and happy to be gaming--assuming we put out quality products that they want to buy. I say let WotC worry about recruiting new people (so that they can selling them a PH and a DMG). You actually gain more by retention than by recruitment.
On this thread's other topic, I believe that what d20 can do, rather than drawing in new customers, is keep current customers playing longer. When I was at WotC and looked at the marketing data, the conclusion that I drew was that retaining customers could grow the market/customer base as much as bringing in new customers (and it's actually probably easier and cheaper to keep a customer playing than to recruit a new one).
The math is simple. If 10,000 new players start playing each year, but 10,000 people quit each year (for whatever reason), you could increase the first number or decrease the second for the same effect. (It's more complex than that of course, with other factors, such as the more people you keep from dropping out, the more people they recruit on their own, and the idea that someone who's been playing for longer is more likely to buy a supplement than someone who is brand new, etc. etc. These factors indicate to me, in fact, that decreasing the second number is more important than increasing the first.)
That was, in fact, the reason that made me realize that d20 was good for the hobby overall, because it is through d20 that we will keep customers engaged and happy to be gaming--assuming we put out quality products that they want to buy. I say let WotC worry about recruiting new people (so that they can selling them a PH and a DMG). You actually gain more by retention than by recruitment.
BiggusGeekus
That's Latin for "cool"
Monte At Home said:
I have no facts to support this, but I feel that CRPGs are the largest driving force.
Case example:
I was talking to my girlfiend's boss. He's around 45 and has no interest in PnP, but he used to play in college. He saw Baldur's Gate in the store and thought "Wow, I can play D&D again and I don't have to deal with fighting over the last Mountian Dew." He picked it up and loved it and went on to buy the rest of that series of games. For Christmas he gets his nephews the 3rd editoin PHB, DMG, and MM. Which he says he would never have even heard of if he hadn't had his interest re-sparked. So the CRPG transalted into three PnP purchases with possibly more if his nephews like RPGs.
But, as I said, I have no hard data to back this up. It is only my personal thought.
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Orcus
First Post
d20 is going like gangbusters, in my opinion. As Monte says, if d20 were one company, it would be huge. The problem is that there are more shards of the one company now so individual publishers may see smaller total sales. That is true for Necromancer as well (though our numbers FAR exceed those quoted in the first post both pre and post "glut").
Here is the stinger (which may be the reason people say d20 is hurting): a small distribution d20 company that previously sold 4000 copies of a product now sells 1500 to 2000. That is a big marginal shift. You may go from making a profit to not making a profit in many instances. And if you made business expenditures and decisions based on continuing to sell 4000 units then that company might be in trouble...
I do agree that this may not be the best time for a new d20 company with small distribution to launch.
Clark
Here is the stinger (which may be the reason people say d20 is hurting): a small distribution d20 company that previously sold 4000 copies of a product now sells 1500 to 2000. That is a big marginal shift. You may go from making a profit to not making a profit in many instances. And if you made business expenditures and decisions based on continuing to sell 4000 units then that company might be in trouble...
I do agree that this may not be the best time for a new d20 company with small distribution to launch.
Clark
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