D&D 5E Problems with Lost Mine of Phandelver (Errata & Suggestions)

jrowland

First Post
First: To [MENTION=66792]Koren n'Rhys[/MENTION], Please embed that massive wall of text into a spoiler box or something just to shrink it down. It kills the tapatalk app on smartphones and it takes five minutes to scroll through it. That said, thanks for the compilation!

Some additional ideas for Jazzing up LMoP:

The Cult of Dragon and the Green Dragon: Use this as an opportunity to foreshadow/Create a Lead for the Tyranny of Dragons storyline.

Nezznar: Use him to foreshadow/Create a Lead for the Out of the Abyss story line

Sildar/Gundren/Iarno/Necromancer can all have ties to the Prophets in Princes of the Apocolypse (Sildar could complain about the "Windreavers" and how they betray the purpose of Nobility. Gundren could perhaps express an interest in some Monks who worship the stone...perhaps they could help "re-open" the mine, Iarno could be a Fire Cultist planning on making Red Brands into cultists as well, the necromancer could trying to investigate the well, which leads to a smaller water node to tap into its powers, etc)

Basically, try to provide hooks for A) The next adventure you wish to run or B) ALL of the them (my choice) and let the players follow whatever lead/hook that interests them.
 

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jayoungr

Legend
Supporter
Valid reasons, but the players were expecting something a bit better than a small brazier that can make a weapon temporarily magical for a day or so.
I guess it's all about expectations.

They (and I) would have been happy with perhaps a single common/uncommon permanent magic item for each character. The story could have been adjusted to accomodate the 1 per character limitation. As it was, the players just kind of ignored it and moved on.
I think that's what the table full of just-finished items was there for. What stopped you from changing the items on the table so that there could be something for each character--especially since you say you already did quite a bit of customization in the adventure overall?

The problem wasn't the reveal as to what he was (which didn't really play into anything anyway), but rather the lack of any depth as a villain.
It wasn't really an issue for my own group, as they never met him until the last room of the last dungeon. They didn't stop to chat, but just attacked. I suspect a lot of groups treated him this way.

It was also kind of annoying that the entire time the party is trying to rescue Gundren and prevent the Spider from getting the map and finding the mine, he's already there and doesn't even need it.
I figured the Black Spider wanted Gundren and the map so that he would be the only one who knew where the mine was--i.e., to prevent anyone else from coming and disrupting his operation there. He also would have been happy to know the shortest path to the forge, but that was a secondary goal.
 

Koren n'Rhys

Explorer
First: To [MENTION=66792]Koren n'Rhys[/MENTION], Please embed that massive wall of text into a spoiler box or something just to shrink it down. It kills the tapatalk app on smartphones and it takes five minutes to scroll through it. That said, thanks for the compilation!
Don't use the Tapatalk app myself, so my aplogies for that. OP has been edited. Hope that helps!
 

MG.0

First Post
I think that's what the table full of just-finished items was there for. What stopped you from changing the items on the table so that there could be something for each character--especially since you say you already did quite a bit of customization in the adventure overall?
I did change it. I never feel bound to use anything as written. I was just commenting on what I felt would have made the actual written material better.
 

robus

Lowcountry Low Roller
Supporter
Just finished LMoP last night and have to agree that Nezznar was a weak BBEG for the end. His Spider Staff is just +1 and his STR and DEX are both weak. So his chance of hitting my PCs was pretty much zero. (It didn't help that he ended up going last on the initiative). I should have given him multi-attack to cast a spell and use the Spider Staff. I even supported him with 5 Giant Spiders instead of the spec'd 2 and that slowed things down a bit, but compared to Flaming Skull he was a wimp both on attack and defense.

And what's up with Dopplegangers? Are they the most pointless monster? Slam attack, seriously? They give themselves away immediately.

Looking forward to moving on the HotDQ (Ch 5) where things seem a bit beefier.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
The problem wasn't the reveal as to what he was (which didn't really play into anything anyway), but rather the lack of any depth as a villain. It was also kind of annoying that the entire time the party is trying to rescue Gundren and prevent the Spider from getting the map and finding the mine, he's already there and doesn't even need it.

Yeah, the villain is definitely one of the weak points of the adventure. In addition to what you mentioned, he's not really doing anything at the mine. Very Orcus On His Throne.
 

The wolf thing also confused our party. The DM described that 2 wolves were chained up, and then a third joins the battle. I assumed that maybe the cave was a bit deeper, and the third wolf was simply hidden from sight. But I think it is definitely an error in the module.

And then there's the descriptions. I already spend a lot of words on it in the other thread where I detailed my first experience with 5th edition and LmoP.

The description of the cellar is indeed incorrect, there is one door out of the room towards the north (underneath the stairs), and one to the west (to the barracks), plus the one the players came in through (but that doesn't count). The third is a secret door, which you obviously don't tell the players about unless they investigate.

But lets look at the actual description of the room:

"The door opens onto a five-foot-wide landing fifteen feet above a large cellar, with stone steps descending to the floor in two short flights. Another door stands beneath the stairs to the north. A large stone cistern occupies the western part of the room, whose walls are lined with kegs and barrels."

This is a TERRIBLE description for a room, and unfortunately it is the default style for descriptions in most campaign modules. You should never describe a room in this way, because the lay out of the room is completely unclear. The only detail I understood, was that two stairs descend down from a small elevated platform, and that there was a door somewhere. The orientation and location of the door is unclear, and if you look at the actual map, it looks entirely different from what you'd assume it looks like. Campaign modules cannot clearly describe rooms to save their lives.

-Measurements of the room are often useless information when trying to get a general idea of what the room looks like. It is better to keep it simple, and say if the room is small or large, thin or wide. The exact measurements are only relevant when specifically asked for.
-Not mentioning from which direction the players are approaching, is a huge error, because it makes the location of the other door unclear. So either include the direction from which the players are entering in the description, or describe the entire room from the point of view of the players (to your left you see....). I prefer the latter.
-The cistern is also a bad description, because it is more important to describe the basin of water (not everyone knows what a cistern is exactly).
-The door to the barracks is not mentioned at all. Further more, the description mentions a door underneath the stairs to the north. Without having any point of reference, the players have no idea where this door is. The description does not mention that the players are coming from the east. A better description, would be to say that the stairs to their right has a door underneath it.

Here is how I would describe this room:

"You enter through a door, and find yourself on a small stone platform. In front of you, you see an underground cistern with a small basin of water. Two small stone staircases both descend from where you are standing now, into the cistern below. But one of these staircases (the one to your right) has a wooden door underneath it."

"To the left of the basin of water, there's a dead end where kegs are stored. And to the right of the water is yet another wooden door."

This is way better, because you now know where things are located from your point of entry. It also gives a better description of this cistern, because a lot of people don't know what a cistern is. You do not need to know compass directions, unless the party has a compass.

Lets look at another example from the cave entrance:

"On the east side of the stream flowing from the cave mouth, a small area in the briar thickets has been hollowed out to form a lookout post or blind. Wooden planks flatten out the briars and provide room for guards to lie hidden and watch the area-including a pair of goblins lurking there right now!"

This description is useless, without first telling the players from which side they are approaching the cave. Further more, the idea of a lookout that is just a bunch of planks lying on the ground is strange, and immediately demands an explanation (why not a watchtower, or why not simply hide in the bushes?). And the river coming from the cave is mentioned in one sentence along with the bizarre look out. Too many details! Start out simple! Here's how you should describe this scene:

"You approach a small clearing in the forest from the west. There's a cave right in front of you, at the foot of a mountain, and a small stream flows from it. *pause*"

"Beyond the cave, the clearing extends a bit further to the east, and beyond that, more forest. You spot two goblins in the bushes there."

There you go, done. You could also add further that there's a steep wall of natural rock behind the cave, so the only way to travel further north, is by going through the cave. The map illustrates this, but the description does not include it. When I heard the original description, I thought it was just a cave in the middle of a forest clearing. Which seemed bizarre.
 
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robus

Lowcountry Low Roller
Supporter
For a second I had this thought of writing a real starter adventure that would provide real advice to DMs trying to get a handle on things. Similar to [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION] 's excellent adjudicating actions guide. But then I had a lie down and the feeling passed... :)
 

5Shilling

Explorer
Yes I don't think I've ever seen good boxed text in an official adventure module. I always give my own description based on the map.

Small plug but on topic: When I ran LMoP I wrote a lot of wandering encounter tables for Part 3 as I thought there should be more variety and fewer automatic combat encounters - they're now on DMs Guild. I'm in the process of writing some similar tables for Wave Echo Cave; based on people's feeling here, I might see if I can work some Black Spider references into them to give him more presence.
 
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Angelo Pantano

First Post
Sorry if I resurrect an old thread, but I am playing LMoP and I got into a big problem for the location of the Wave Echo Cave revealed prematurely by mistake so I searched the web for an errata and I found this post and I noticed this bit is still wrong:

2) The bugbears in the Redbrand Hideout know where Wave Echo Cave is. The text does say that they won't willingly give up this info, but if the PCs do manage to get it out of them, what's stopping them from going straight there? I suppose it's not that big a deal, especially if they've already rescued Gundren (and if they haven't, one would hope his rescue would be next on the agenda anyway). Nevertheless, it seems to me like it would make more sense for the bugbears to have come from the Cragmaw tribe and therefore not know where Wave Echo Cave is.

So where is the error here? The error is that the bugbears know where Castle Cragmaw is, not Wave Echo Cave. It's probably just a word typo, but it screws the whole adventure because the PCs are supposed to go to Castle Cragmaw in chapter 3, not bypass it and go directly to chapter 4. At the end of Chapter 2 they are supposed to be lvl3 so if the bugbear reveal the location of the Cave they would face CR of 4+ when being 3lvl.

You may think this is done on purpose and that PCs should be pushed to do the sidequests first to gain more power, but the reason why this is wrong is also logic. The location of the cave is a secret only known by the Black Spider (thanks to Sildar's map) and by the Rockseekers. There is no chance common bugbears would know the location of the cave or that the Black Spider would have told them this bit.

I really think it would be worth to make an official errata out of this because this is a great adventure, but it's riddled with typos and contradictory information. Fixing this bit would be most important to avoid that other DMs get screwed.
 

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