Reply to thread

Message

<blockquote data-quote="Orius" data-source="post: 5589238" data-attributes="member: 8863">There's a <a href="http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?579148-Why-the-old-5-saves-make-sense-(or-how-to-make-sense-of-them)-text-not-vids." target="_blank">thread over on RPG.net</a> which covers similar ground.&nbsp; The author makes some attempt to reason out the logic behind the pre-3e saves, and it's an interesting read.&nbsp; His conclusion is that the saves make sense in their own way, the problem is that Gary never really explained the reasoning behind the saves so they may seem a bit arbitrary.&nbsp; Come to think of it, a lot of pre-3 feels that way: there is a logic behind it all, and there is consideration for balance, but there's not much explanation behind it so it often feels arbitrary.The old 5 saves were confusing when you needed a save for something that isn't explicitly covered in the categories. Yes, if it's a listed effect it's quite clear what you use, and certain saves take priority when there is overlap, but it's not always the case.&nbsp; I had that problem all the time when I set up traps; if it's not one of the listed effects, what save do I use?&nbsp; I got this pit trap here (and this came up often because I like pits a lot), what save is appropriate? It's not poison, it's not being shot out of a wand or breathed at the PC, it's not a spell, and it's not transforming them.&nbsp; I'd end up picking whatever I thought the PCs were more likely to fail TBH.&nbsp; With F/R/W it's a lot easier for the DM, saving against a pit is really a matter of dodging or avoiding something, so it's obviously Reflex.&nbsp; This is the biggest weakness in the old system; there's little advice for the DM when assigning a save that falls outside the system; the 2e DMG offers some suggestions, but I find 3e's saves to be much more intuitive to assign when DMing.&nbsp; And then of course because it's pre-3e sometimes you don't even have the save, you go for an ability check instead.&nbsp; Even the module writers tended to be kind of inconsistant about things, which doesn't make it any easier for the average DM.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Orius, post: 5589238, member: 8863"] There's a [url=http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?579148-Why-the-old-5-saves-make-sense-(or-how-to-make-sense-of-them)-text-not-vids.]thread over on RPG.net[/url] which covers similar ground. The author makes some attempt to reason out the logic behind the pre-3e saves, and it's an interesting read. His conclusion is that the saves make sense in their own way, the problem is that Gary never really explained the reasoning behind the saves so they may seem a bit arbitrary. Come to think of it, a [i]lot[/i] of pre-3 feels that way: there is a logic behind it all, and there is consideration for balance, but there's not much explanation behind it so it often feels arbitrary. The old 5 saves were confusing when you needed a save for something that isn't explicitly covered in the categories. Yes, if it's a listed effect it's quite clear what you use, and certain saves take priority when there is overlap, but it's not always the case. I had that problem all the time when I set up traps; if it's not one of the listed effects, what save do I use? I got this pit trap here (and this came up often because I like pits a lot), what save is appropriate? It's not poison, it's not being shot out of a wand or breathed at the PC, it's not a spell, and it's not transforming them. I'd end up picking whatever I thought the PCs were more likely to fail TBH. With F/R/W it's a lot easier for the DM, saving against a pit is really a matter of dodging or avoiding something, so it's obviously Reflex. This is the biggest weakness in the old system; there's little advice for the DM when assigning a save that falls outside the system; the 2e DMG offers some suggestions, but I find 3e's saves to be much more intuitive to assign when DMing. And then of course because it's pre-3e sometimes you don't even have the save, you go for an ability check instead. Even the module writers tended to be kind of inconsistant about things, which doesn't make it any easier for the average DM. [/QUOTE]

Verification