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Message: <blockquote data-quote="steeldragons" data-source="post: 5589274" data-attributes="member: 92511">Oh well. I tried. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Was I, at least, correct that disintegrate required a "to hit" roll to initiate a save?  Don't have the description in front of me and it's been a lonnnng time since I had a group powerful enugh to either use or face a disintegrate spell.As I said earlier, your point seems to be collectively agreed with...1e saves were somewhat inconsistent. But I don't ever recall arguments or problems arising in play because of that. If it seemed "out of place", as I said, I would just change it to a save I thought fit better or make it an ability check...which, in essence, seems to be what the subsequent Fort/Will/Reflex saves were based around.That said, how would people make a transition from "ye elder" to "ye newer"?Just goin' off the top of my head now, think I would go something like this:Poison: Is probably the most obvious, Fort. Your constitution/immune system/however you want to define it, either succumbs to the poison fully, partially, or not at all. Paralysis: depends on the kind of attack, I think...Fort if it were a physical (some creature's natural attack, as this might easily be caused/interpreted to "Poison") or Will if it were a spell/enchantment effect.Death Magic: might be the toughest one...as it is at first glance, specifically "magic", which would lead one say Will...but but I think it would more appropriately be chosen on an individual basis based on the cause...as Spells, see below.Rods, Staves, Wands: I think, again, depends ont he type of attack/spell being put forth by the item. A wand that has some Enchantment/Charm effect would certainly be Will...those that would be beams or rays, like most Evocation type spells might be Reflex instead...if I had to pick one, I think I'd go with Reflex for these items across the board...even if a Spell with the same effect might be Will...or even Fort. So one might be able to avoid the "beam" effect from a Wand of Paralysis, but might not be able to resist a Hold Person spell...different saves even though the result/effect is the same...'cept for Magic Missles (wand or spell), of course. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Petrification and Polymorph: Even though these are almost surely Spell (or at least magical, i.e. a medusa's gaze) effects, I would attribute to Fortitude. This seems to make sense if one is undergoing the strain of such a phsyically demanding transformation. In fact, Transmutation spells in general, I think would fall under this category i.e. using "Reduce" on a foe/unwilling target to shrink them.Spells: I'm afraid, and maybe this is just because I tend to enjoy a "magic heavy" environment, would have to be taken on an individual basis per spell effect or lumped in by magic "type/school". Mind effecting/altering like charms or [most] illusions would be Will. Reflex for beams, cones, things that require a "to hit"/"touch" spells or some kind of "avoidable" effects like [trying to] diving out of a fireball or ice storm's area of effect. Fort's for, as mentioned above, physical effects like polymorphing or Slow or even, say, "binding" someone with an Animated Rope or somesuch..Breath Weapon: seems a fairly straightforward Reflex. Either you avoid it or you don't. No matter how "fortified" or "willful" you are, if you're in the line of fire and can't get, at least partially, out of it, you're toasted to some degree by that red dragon. So yes, they lend themselves to some overlap or confusion when compared to FWR, but again, sorting out "da rulez"/"making the call" is really one of the essential elements the DM is for (or at least in the earlier editions was for). I don't think I would use the old system saves to avoid something like a "pit trap"...those poison spikes at the bottom, however, would be another story. hehheh.--SD</blockquote>

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