Produce Flame and Natural Attacks

[jgsugden]

Produce Flame
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Drd 1, Fire 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 0 ft.
Effect: Flame in your palm
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
Flames as bright as a torch appear in your open hand. The flames harm neither you nor your equipment.
In addition to providing illumination, the flames can be hurled or used to touch enemies. You can strike an opponent with a melee touch attack, dealing fire damage equal to 1d6 +1 point per caster level (maximum +5). Alternatively, you can hurl the flames up to 120 feet as a thrown weapon. When doing so, you attack with a ranged touch attack (with no range penalty) and deal the same damage as with the melee attack. No sooner do you hurl the flames than a new set appears in your hand. Each attack you make reduces the remaining duration by 1 minute. If an attack reduces the remaining duration to 0 minutes or less, the spell ends after the attack resolves.
This spell does not function underwater.

Holding the Charge: ... Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.

What do you folks think ... can a produce flame effect be delivered on a claw attack while wildshaped? Or, because it is not specifically a touch spell (but is instead a spell that creates an effect that can be delivered with a touch attack), does it not follow the normal touch spell rules found in the basic combat section of the PHB/SRD?

 

[Korak]

What do you folks think ... can a produce flame effect be delivered on a claw attack while wildshaped? Or, because it is not specifically a touch spell (but is instead a spell that creates an effect that can be delivered with a touch attack), does it not follow the normal touch spell rules found in the basic combat section of the PHB/SRD?

I see nothing overpowered with allowing a druid to deliver the produce flame spell damage with a natural attack. It is a fair trade to give up the touch attack part in exchange for more damage. It also seems in the spirit of the touch spell rules, though I am not sure enough to certify it totally RAW.

 

[Beholder Bob]

For my 2 cents - since it refers to its use in melee as a touch attack, I'd go that route (treat it as a touch attack) - and so may be used with unarmed & natural attacks

 

[GodPhoenix]

What do you folks think ... can a produce flame effect be delivered on a claw attack while wildshaped? Or, because it is not specifically a touch spell (but is instead a spell that creates an effect that can be delivered with a touch attack), does it not follow the normal touch spell rules found in the basic combat section of the PHB/SRD?

Crud, I just posted a reply and the boards ate it...so here I try again. Anyhoo...

I think the flame attack can be delivered on a claw attack while wildshaped. (I can't think of a hard rule that forbids it.) This comes up in my campaign a lot as I have a PC monk/druid who casts this spell often. OFTEN. He also uses the 'share spells' ability of his animal companion so they both get flame attacks. I hadn't noticed it before but since the spell description says "Flames as bright as a torch appear in your open hand." claw attacks would get the extra flame damage but bite attacks would not.


ps - any idea when your house-rule-wildshape-ECL rules will be ready for the masses?

 

[jgsugden]

ps - any idea when your house-rule-wildshape-ECL rules will be ready for the masses?

A while. Perhaps a few weeks. I don't like to post house rules unless I've tested them out to make sure they work. It is a very hard spell to manage because of all the possible uses. Finding a rule that is balanced, easy to use and doesn't require rewriting the entire MM is a bit tricky ...

My current playtests are promising. The players have given a thumbs up on simplicity and balance, but a thumbs down because it is too much of a change, especially for druids that use strength and dexterity for 'dump' stats that are overwritten by polymorph 3.0 and 3.5. I've got an idea to fix that, but it may end up violating my self imposed complexity restrictions.

 

[Hypersmurf]

He also uses the 'share spells' ability of his animal companion so they both get flame attacks.

No, he doesn't. Well, maybe he does, but it shouldn't work.

Produce Flame causes an Effect. It is not "a spell cast upon himself" (which would require a Target: You or Target: Creature entry), so it's not eligible for Sharing.

-Hyp.

 

[Darklone]

Phew. Nice to hear that.

 

[jgsugden]

Hyper - Do you have $0.03 (inflation) on whether produce flame can be delivered via a claw attack (in addition to claw damage)? Any rules I missed?