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Message: <blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 4507012" data-attributes="member: 2067">Absolutely right. But these degrees are relative. All we can really objectively decide is whether or not it is a failure at all to anyone. The OP says that it's not, others say that it is. Unless everyone who says that it is is somehow lying or being deceptive or dishonest, it fails for them, which means it does fail. The only question after that is "How badly does it fail?"That's a pretty subjective question, though, and opinions are going to vary a lot. For some, it's not a failure at all, but a success even! That's fine and dandy, but that doesn't mean it's not a failure for others (even if it's not a failure for you). Actually, it really does. The measure for success for a game system is how many things I need that it provides for me. The theoretical ideal game system for me would have everything I needed or wanted in it, and nothing that I didn't need. If it doesn't provide something I want or need, that's a failure.Yes, that's an unattainable ideal. No, I would never expect a game system to ever actually provide everyone with everything. It is still fair to say that 4e doesn't provide some things that some people need and that not providing that is a failure for these people. Saying 4e isn't a perfect system shouldn't be blasphemy. Pointing out that 4e might not meet everyone's needs isn't sacrilege. It is the very nature of every game out there, and it must be recognized and dealt with. It doesn't matter how hard you stress it, it doesn't make it true.The wrought iron fence of tigers is a barrier between mechanics and story. Period. Full stop. Nothing else matters. It is this barrier. That is all it is, and that is everything it is. That is what I am referring to. The barrier. That's all. Nothing else. It is the barrier.Wrought Iron Fence Made Of Tigers = When Story and Mechanics don't affect each other in a particularly noticeable way. Everything else is superfluous, because these are all caused by that barrier being in place in the first place. That barrier, the tiger-fence, the divide between story and mechanics is, for me, a bad thing. The barrier sucks for me, the barrier causes many problems, one of the problems the barrier may cause is that DM Fiat craft or profession systems aren't very satisfying for games where crafting or professions are important. "the barrier" = wrought iron fence made of tigers. It's a useful term.That's probably a valid dissonance, too, it's just a less blatant. The basic point is that the dissonance does exist. It is out there. Some games experience it. There is a divide. There is a barrier. That barrier is very strong in many places. Strong enough to cause a dissonance. The strength of this barrier makes it a wrought iron fence made of tigers. That dissonance does exist. That's the point. The point is that there is a dissonance, and that this dissonance is a problem. Agree that there can be a dissonance? Good. We agree that some people will have a valid problem with there being a dissonance. We agree that this is less than ideal for those people. This, then, makes it a failure, however  narrow or minor or easily fixed it is (because how narrow and minor and easily fixed it is is a more subjective issue). This shouldn't really need much of a justification. It's like saying that 4e fails to accommodate those who want a highly political game of intrigue where they play vampires in hiding in the modern day. Really? A game system isn't perfect? It can't do everything out of the box? shocker.</blockquote>

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