D&D 5E Project Monsters by Level (not CR)

NotAYakk

Legend
I like what you have done here, but we need to verify if the numbers add to a "typical" PC at each level. But this is a good framework.
Yes.

So, the Baseline (pre-template) matches a zero-background zero-gear zero-feat Rogue from level 5 to 10.

It is stronger at level 11 to 16 and 17 to 20, and weaker at 1-4.

In theory, magic items and subclasses and optimization could close the gap. And it definitely needs a balance pass.

I suspect the templates are too big, or the baseline is too big. Also, while I like the "1 attack per tier", it probably won't be able to work.
 

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FitzTheRuke

Legend
Trying it with an Ogre:

Ogre
Level 2 (Tier 1) Elite(2) Brute(2)

Damage: 14
Attacks: 1
HP: 45
Attack Attribute: STR 18 (Strong)
Other Attributes: 8/16/5/7/7
AC: 11
Movement Speed: 30'
Attack Actions:
Club. 5ft MWA: (+6) for 13 (2d8+4) bludgeoning damage.
Javelin. 30/120ft RWA: (+6) for 8 (1d8+4) bludgeoning damage.
Paragon Action:
Stomp. 5ft MWA: (+6) for 7 (1d6+4) bludgeoning damage & the target must roll a dc14 STR save or fall prone.

When you take a Paragon action you can make a save against an effect a save can end, but suffer no consequence if you fail. If there is an effect that a save cannot end but had an initial save, you can reroll that initial save; you suffer no consequences if you fail, but if you succeed you can choose to end the spell on you and suffer the consequences of a successful save instead.

Commentary:
HP seem low, but I like his Paragon Action. Still weaker than a regular 5e Ogre, which seems strange to me when this is a Level 2 Elite, compared to a regular CR2. I let 1 point of their melee attack drop off but gave it to their ranged attack, but that was to make the dice easy to use.

What do you think?
 

NotAYakk

Legend
Trying it with an Ogre:

Ogre
Level 2 (Tier 1) Elite(2) Brute(2)

Damage: 14
Attacks: 1
HP: 45
Attack Attribute: STR 18 (Strong)
Other Attributes: 8/16/5/7/7
AC: 11
Movement Speed: 30'
Attack Actions:
Club. 5ft MWA: (+6) for 13 (2d8+4) bludgeoning damage.
Javelin. 30/120ft RWA: (+6) for 8 (1d8+4) bludgeoning damage.
Paragon Action:
Stomp. 5ft MWA: (+6) for 7 (1d6+4) bludgeoning damage & the target must roll a dc14 STR save or fall prone.

When you take a Paragon action you can make a save against an effect a save can end, but suffer no consequence if you fail. If there is an effect that a save cannot end but had an initial save, you can reroll that initial save; you suffer no consequences if you fail, but if you succeed you can choose to end the spell on you and suffer the consequences of a successful save instead.

Commentary:
HP seem low, but I like his Paragon Action. Still weaker than a regular 5e Ogre, which seems strange to me when this is a Level 2 Elite, compared to a regular CR2. I let 1 point of their melee attack drop off but gave it to their ranged attack, but that was to make the dice easy to use.

What do you think?
A CR 2 is "a medium challenge for a group of 4 Level 2 PCs".
 


dave2008

Legend
@NotAYakk , I have given it some more thought and I really like the start you made here:
A sketch of a possible system. Needs a balance pass and details.

Level: Monsters in this system have a Level. The idea is that a level 10 monster is to a level 10 PC as a Level 1 monster is to a Level 1 PC.

Tier: Level 1-4 is Tier 1, 5-10 is Tier 2, 11-16 is Tier 3, 17-20 is Tier 4, 21-23 is Tier 5, 24-26 is Tier 6, 27-29 is Tier 7 and 30 is Tier 8.

Elite: Monsters can be Elite(N). An Elite(2) monster is "two times as wide" as a normal monster of the same level, while an Elite(5) is "five times as wide".

Elite monsters add their proficiency bonus to their AC and saving throws, and add (N-1) to their attack attribute.

Elite monsters gain (N-1) special abilities.

An Elite(N) monster has (N-1) Paragon actions per turn. A Paragon action is a kind of Legendary action.

Your damage budget on a Paragon action is 1/2 of a normal monster's damage budget.

When you take a Paragon action you can make a save against an effect a save can end, but suffer no consequence if you fail. If there is an effect that a save cannot end but had an initial save, you can reroll that initial save; you suffer no consequences if you fail, but if you succeed you can choose to end the spell on you and suffer the consequences of a successful save instead.

Baseline: To build a monster, you start with a baseline monster. Then you add two templates (you can pick the same one twice) and 1 special ability per tier.

Damage: 4+Level
Attacks: 1 per tier
HP: 5+5*level
Attack Attribute: 12 + level
Other Attributes: To taste
Proficiency: 2 + (Level-1)/4 rounded down
AC: 10+Level/2
Movement speed: 30'

Range damage is 1/2 of melee damage if it has it.

You can combine or divide attacks into bigger ones if you want (ie a level 11 creature gets 3 attacks at 15, or one at 45).

Templates

Brute
: +level*2 damage, +5+level*5 HP
Soldier: +5 AC, +2+level*2 HP, proficiency in all saves
Sniper: Range damage is not halved melee is instead, +level damage
Skirmisher: +level*2 damage, +10' movement speed per tier, +3 AC, proficiency in dex saves
Artillery: Ranged damage is AOE (10' radius per tier)
Leader: +5+level*5 HP, gets 2 extra special abilities

Special Abilities:

Spellcasting: Pick 1 spell of level Tier+1, 2 spells of level Tier and 3 spells of level Tier-1 or lower. You can cast each once. (for lower level spells, feel free to make them at-will).

Crippling Attacks: When your attack hits it causes a condition. Use an appropriate attribute for the save DC (it should be similar to your attack attribute).

Most effects should offer a saving throw at the end of each turn to shake it off.

Some effects should require multiple failures to kick in.

Poisoned can be shaken off.
Paralyzed should require multiple failures to occur.

Breath Weapon: A typically recharge 56 AOE ability.

I'd recommend having the Breath Weapon's recharge be at the end of a creature's turn, and make it visible, to allow PCs to respond.

Damage should be (8+Level*2) range with a save for half.

Area covered should be 10-15' radius per tier.

A creature that throws a ball of fire would also count as "breath weapon". The point is

Commander's Strike (Leader only)
Allied creatures make an attack in addition to the leader's attacks.

Flight: The creature can fly and has an additional (Tier)*10' movement speed.

Speedy: The creature has an additional (Tier)*20' movement speed.

Defend: As a reaction, can move half its speed and take an attack meant for another.

Pack Tactics: Allies attacks adjacent foes are at advantage.

Strong: Your attack attribute increases by 3+your Tier.
I like how you have set up the baseline and how it evolves by Tiers. I am less convinced by the elite monsters and templates, but I like where it is going. I will post more detailed thoughts on monster roles (elite+) and templates (brute+) later, but I want to make a few quick comments.

Roles
I need to delve into the specifics a bit more, but I can say I want different names for each one. So...
Paragon = standard x 4
Elite = standard x2
standard = baseline
grunt = baseline / 2
minion = baseline / 4

How that is achieved is TBD, but I will try to come up with a draft later today. Also, does N = Tier? I didn't see that explained, but that was my assumption.

Templates:
It appears the templates you created are more powerful than the baseline. My intent would be for them to modify the baseline, but not make it more powerful. I will see what I can come up with and post my draft later today.


Fritz, I like this Ogre. Nice work. I am not convinced by the stomp action, that seems more like a giant move to me. However, I think it is overall a good proof of concept.
Trying it with an Ogre:

Ogre
Level 2 (Tier 1) Elite(2) Brute(2)

Damage: 14
Attacks: 1
HP: 45
Attack Attribute: STR 18 (Strong)
Other Attributes: 8/16/5/7/7
AC: 11
Movement Speed: 30'
Attack Actions:
Club. 5ft MWA: (+6) for 13 (2d8+4) bludgeoning damage.
Javelin. 30/120ft RWA: (+6) for 8 (1d8+4) bludgeoning damage.
Paragon Action:
Stomp. 5ft MWA: (+6) for 7 (1d6+4) bludgeoning damage & the target must roll a dc14 STR save or fall prone.

When you take a Paragon action you can make a save against an effect a save can end, but suffer no consequence if you fail. If there is an effect that a save cannot end but had an initial save, you can reroll that initial save; you suffer no consequences if you fail, but if you succeed you can choose to end the spell on you and suffer the consequences of a successful save instead.

Commentary:
HP seem low, but I like his Paragon Action. Still weaker than a regular 5e Ogre, which seems strange to me when this is a Level 2 Elite, compared to a regular CR2. I let 1 point of their melee attack drop off but gave it to their ranged attack, but that was to make the dice easy to use.

What do you think?

I think we are getting close to defining what a monster by level is, so soon I need to start making the monsters! I hope to start a new thread (5e Monstrous Manual: Monsters by Level - maybe?) sometime after my upcoming vacation, so maybe the end of May or beginning of June. Until then, I will keep working on ideas here.
 

NotAYakk

Legend
@NotAYakk , I have given it some more thought and I really like the start you made here:

I like how you have set up the baseline and how it evolves by Tiers. I am less convinced by the elite monsters and templates, but I like where it is going. I will post more detailed thoughts on monster roles (elite+) and templates (brute+) later, but I want to make a few quick comments.

Roles
I need to delve into the specifics a bit more, but I can say I want different names for each one. So...
Paragon = standard x 4
Elite = standard x2
standard = baseline
grunt = baseline / 2
minion = baseline / 4

Rather than Paragon vs Elite, I have noticed we can just have Elite(2) and Elite(4).

The point is by scaling Elite(N), we get a monster that can grow horizontally as the party size (or drama) requires.

The math for "a double-wide" monster and a "4x wide" monster is relatively similar.

Like, suppose you have an encounter for 4 PCs, but you have 6. You can make the Elite(2) an Elite(3) and take the 3 standard monsters and up it to 5.
How that is achieved is TBD, but I will try to come up with a draft later today. Also, does N = Tier? I didn't see that explained, but that was my assumption.
No, N here is how "wide" it is. Elite(2) is 2 monsters "wide" (counts as two monsters of the same level). Elite(4) is 4 monsters "wide" (4x).

Scale HP by N (hence duration of the fight) and get a "half damage" Paragon action(s), plus some fudging on base stats, and you get a monster that "auto-scales".

Templates:
It appears the templates you created are more powerful than the baseline. My intent would be for them to modify the baseline, but not make it more powerful. I will see what I can come up with and post my draft later today.
Sure, I get that. But adding to a lower number is the same as adding and subtracting to a bigger number.

Ie, if Soldiers are +2 AC and Brutes are -2 AC, we can just lower the baseline AC by 2 and make Soldiers +4, Brutes +0, and others +2.

By making the Templates/Roles almost entirely additive and roughly as good as each other, adding a Template/Roll ups the power of the monster by a known amount. Then we budget for a certain number of them on a monster.

This intentionally blocks "I'll just use a vanilla monster" because vanilla monsters aren't a thing; all monsters should have texture.

...

The baseline I used was based off of a "naked rogue". I didn't make it scale right, especially T3/T4.

The templates where completely eyeballed and not even a balance pass done. I wanted Templates to have a significant impact (a Brute should feel very different than a non-Brute), so made Brute big. And you get 2 of them.

Possibly I need to make them smaller.

...

I like the "1 attack per tier" thing. But I think it also needs a dropping of the baseline damage for the math to work out.

So a naive Rogue does 2d6+3 damage at level 1 (10), and goes up by about 2 per level. This is 8+2 per level. But that is a lie, because it neglects a bunch of non-naked Rogue power ups.

In my first pass, I shaved a bunch off and then multiplied it by tier. But this gives a quadratic result, not enough damage in T1, and too much in T3/4.

Like, (4+L)*Tier vs (8+2L), then relied upon templates to provide the gap.
1:5 vs 10 (!)
4:8 vs 16 (!)
5:18 vs 18
10: 28 vs 28
11: 45 vs 30 (!)
16: 60 vs 40 (!)
17: 84 vs 42 (!)
20: 96 vs 48 (!)

If I change it to (7+L/2)*Tier it boosts level 1 monsters (even tier 1) a bit and pulls down later on:
1:7 vs 10
4:9 vs 16
5:18 vs 18
10: 24 vs 28
11: 36 vs 30
16: 45 vs 40
17: 60 vs 42
20: 68 vs 48

that works better. By T4, the "naive naked rogue" is relatively less powerful than it was at level 1.

OTOH, I could just go with 8+2L. But I like the (damage times tier) thing.
 

FitzTheRuke

Legend
I like the Elite(N) (as opposed to Elite & Paragon).

Personally, I would prefer to stick to only 3 types - Minions, "Standard" (needs better name), & elites(N is good), AND 3 templates (though I'm not sure which of the six listed above to ditch - they all seem to have a place).

I just like 3, because I find it easiest to memorize that many, so I don't need to go looking things up after awhile if I want to adjust on the fly.
 

NotAYakk

Legend
I like the Elite(N) (as opposed to Elite & Paragon).

Personally, I would prefer to stick to only 3 types - Minions, "Standard" (needs better name), & elites(N is good), AND 3 templates (though I'm not sure which of the six listed above to ditch - they all seem to have a place).

I just like 3, because I find it easiest to memorize that many, so I don't need to go looking things up after awhile if I want to adjust on the fly.
Elite(N) came up both from doing the math and from noticing the problem "big tables" have with boss monsters. How do you scale it?

If your Paragon damage budget is 1/2 of your base damage budget, and you get one such action for every N above 1, and you give a bonus to attacking the player that just acted (I'd go with advantage on attacks/disadvantage on saves?), then we can take your monster and scale it to match the PC count "easily".
 

FitzTheRuke

Legend
Elite(N) came up both from doing the math and from noticing the problem "big tables" have with boss monsters. How do you scale it?

If your Paragon damage budget is 1/2 of your base damage budget, and you get one such action for every N above 1, and you give a bonus to attacking the player that just acted (I'd go with advantage on attacks/disadvantage on saves?), then we can take your monster and scale it to match the PC count "easily".
I take it the bonus against the player that just acted is to stop the savvy DM from just targeting the same PC with every paragon action? (Tactically sound but not "fun" for the PC).
 

NotAYakk

Legend
I take it the bonus against the player that just acted is to stop the savvy DM from just targeting the same PC with every paragon action? (Tactically sound but not "fun" for the PC).
Yes.

It also reduces analysis paralysis for the DM (well, I have a bonus, I guess I should use it), gives the bonus to the tactically worst target (the target who has the most time to recover before their next turn) which should increase perceived threat more than actual threat, and encourages spreading out threat (unless things are really important).

We don't force responding to a PC, we encourage it.

As the N in Elite(N) only meta-game wise (The advice is that against a group of 5 PCs, use an Elite(5) to make it a challenge; it isn't Elite(*) where * is the number of foes. The difference is subtle) scales with the number of PCs, bringing in chickens or mooks to the fight doesn't make the monster more effective. The monster if they act on a chicken or mook turn only gets the advantage against the chicken or mook; they probably should save it for PC turns (unless they want to smoosh the chicken or mook!)

It also encourages great drama. You hit the monster, and the monster smacks you cross the room (or tries and fails). Which makes each player's turn a somewhat personal conversation - PC does something, monster responds, next PC.

Also, as we (effectively) factor it into the Elite(N) power budget, it makes the "focus fire on one PC" option ... less optimal! Weaker even. And focus fire being optimal leads to, well, boring combats.

This also makes abilities like Sentinal and position based OAs more fun. Because the DM is encouraged to not focus fire, abilities that push the other way get triggered more often.
 

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