dave2008
Legend
I think that is a good baseline. I've got the concentrate on my work week now, but hope to take this back up soon. Thank you for all the input and ideas!
D&D 5E Project Monsters by Level (not CR)
dave2008
Legend
CR is specifically geared to the group. I am looking for a reference to the individual PC. I am not looking for something that will solve for every potential PC or group of PCs. Just a rough baseline. It is, and always will be IMO, on the DM to understand how that baseline relates to their group.
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dave2008
Legend
My goal was never to mimic 4e. As a reminder, here are the goals I listed in the OP:
- Redefine monsters based on PC level, no more CR.
- Bring back monster depth* via 4e style monster roles: Solo, Elite, Standard, Grunt, Minion
- Make encounter building easier
However, what I did talk about is what constitutes a challenge for 1 PC. That is the meat of what has been discussed so far. If I can't get that figured out, the rest of the exercise is pointless (which it might be anyway).
In you first post you mentioned CR and DMG encounter ratings (easy, hard, deadly, etc.), things I am explicitly trying to get rid of. Then in your second post you mentioned how this was different from 4e when being like 4e was never a goal. Do you understand now why I asked if you read the OP?
*note: "depth" is the wrong word. I meant "breadth" and have changed the OP.
Paul Farquhar
Legend
Encounter building was, and always will be, more of an art than a science. Say I have a relatively weak creature who has an AoE stun. A party with bad wisdom saves is stuffed, for a party with good wisdom saves it's trivial.
Encounter building is not a process that can be automated.
dave2008
Legend
I agree and I never suggested that it be automated.
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5e PCs are not designed to have a similar power budget in a single encounter? So trying to make monsters that are "equal" to a PC in a single encounter is like trying to find an animal that has the same weight as an airplane, when there is everything from jumbo jets to tiny general aviation craft.
If you want a monster that, if you fought 8 of them while taking 2 short rests, is supposed to be equal to a PC, it is a monster whose CR is roughly 1/2 of your level.
So for a level 6 PC, a CR 3 monster is very roughly a monster you could fight 3 in a row, take a short rest, fight 3 in a row, take a short rest, then fight 2 in a row. Your chance of winning in the end would probably be under 50-50.
Veteran: 17 AC, 58 HP, 20 damage output per round in melee at +5 to hit.
Level 6 BM PAM Fighter: 20 AC, 28 damage output per round in melee at +7 to hit, 52 HP, 11.5 second wind, 19.5 action surge. SD are worth at least 40 damage (at 100% accuracy) per SR, 45 short rest healing from HD.
Total Fighter HP budget: 52 + 11.5*3 + 45 = 131.5
Veteran DPR: 6
Veteran HP per short rest: 174 first 2, 116 last one.
Fighter DPR: 15.4
Fighter extra SR damage AS: 10.7, BM: 40
174 - 40 - 10.7 = 123.3, divided by 15.5 is 8 rounds of Veteran damage.
Fighter wins initiative half the time, shaving off 1.5 rounds of Veteran damage (from Vets who die before making the attack that round), leaving 6.5 * 6 = 39 damage taken in each of the first 2 SR.
After 2nd rest, it takes ~5 rounds, with initiative victories dropping it to 4. Another 24 damage.
So the Fighter takes 102 damage over this day of duels, and has 131.5 total budget; ends the day with a bit under 30 HP left.
This is a very close day and a relatively optimized fighter (without magic items). But the danger is roughly what I expected.
I also neglected crits, which would help the veteran a bit more.
For non-Fighters, you'll get more daily power budget and less sustained, and often less durability. For some classes (like Rogue), a duel is going to make them usually non-functional (as 5e PCs are designed around working in a party).
But the above appears to be how 5e PCs are balanced; a sequence of fights over a day against a foe. But in a group setting, not solo.
...
If your definition of "even" is something different, I suspect you will have to rework PCs.
When you make it all occur in one fight, piles of the Fighter's abilities stop being nearly as useful. Almost 1/3 of the above Fighter's offence came from SR refresh abilities, and the majority of its durability.
Meanwhile, if you did the same with a Wizard, almost all of its offence could be dumped in one fight.
A level 6 Wizards at-will damage output is roughly 11 at +7 to hit (6.6 DPR on the above Veteran). It has 19 total spell levels, of which it recovers 3 once from a short rest, on top of that.
In a single fight, the Wizard's main is rounds is stays alive to dump high level spells. Each fireball is 28 damage (save for half), and they can dump 3 in a row, before subclass abilities and any optimization!
If you want a monster that, if you fought 8 of them while taking 2 short rests, is supposed to be equal to a PC, it is a monster whose CR is roughly 1/2 of your level.
So for a level 6 PC, a CR 3 monster is very roughly a monster you could fight 3 in a row, take a short rest, fight 3 in a row, take a short rest, then fight 2 in a row. Your chance of winning in the end would probably be under 50-50.
Veteran: 17 AC, 58 HP, 20 damage output per round in melee at +5 to hit.
Level 6 BM PAM Fighter: 20 AC, 28 damage output per round in melee at +7 to hit, 52 HP, 11.5 second wind, 19.5 action surge. SD are worth at least 40 damage (at 100% accuracy) per SR, 45 short rest healing from HD.
Total Fighter HP budget: 52 + 11.5*3 + 45 = 131.5
Veteran DPR: 6
Veteran HP per short rest: 174 first 2, 116 last one.
Fighter DPR: 15.4
Fighter extra SR damage AS: 10.7, BM: 40
174 - 40 - 10.7 = 123.3, divided by 15.5 is 8 rounds of Veteran damage.
Fighter wins initiative half the time, shaving off 1.5 rounds of Veteran damage (from Vets who die before making the attack that round), leaving 6.5 * 6 = 39 damage taken in each of the first 2 SR.
After 2nd rest, it takes ~5 rounds, with initiative victories dropping it to 4. Another 24 damage.
So the Fighter takes 102 damage over this day of duels, and has 131.5 total budget; ends the day with a bit under 30 HP left.
This is a very close day and a relatively optimized fighter (without magic items). But the danger is roughly what I expected.
I also neglected crits, which would help the veteran a bit more.
For non-Fighters, you'll get more daily power budget and less sustained, and often less durability. For some classes (like Rogue), a duel is going to make them usually non-functional (as 5e PCs are designed around working in a party).
But the above appears to be how 5e PCs are balanced; a sequence of fights over a day against a foe. But in a group setting, not solo.
...
If your definition of "even" is something different, I suspect you will have to rework PCs.
When you make it all occur in one fight, piles of the Fighter's abilities stop being nearly as useful. Almost 1/3 of the above Fighter's offence came from SR refresh abilities, and the majority of its durability.
Meanwhile, if you did the same with a Wizard, almost all of its offence could be dumped in one fight.
A level 6 Wizards at-will damage output is roughly 11 at +7 to hit (6.6 DPR on the above Veteran). It has 19 total spell levels, of which it recovers 3 once from a short rest, on top of that.
In a single fight, the Wizard's main is rounds is stays alive to dump high level spells. Each fireball is 28 damage (save for half), and they can dump 3 in a row, before subclass abilities and any optimization!
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I'm regularly surprised by the fact that Giffyglyph's work in this area doesn't get more attention. Here for example is their work on mapping monster levels to CR so that we can easily convert from CR to monster level (for existing D&D monsters)
But when you want to roll your own their approach to making monsters, in general, was a revelation to me at least:
But when you want to roll your own their approach to making monsters, in general, was a revelation to me at least:
Nice.
The elite monsters are overtuned against raw damage, and weak against control. (they are roughly 2.4x as tough and do 2.6x the damage, but are worth 2 monsters).
Solo monsters are even moreso. With no legendary resists, they are control-spell fodder. Against 4 players, a Solo does 5.8x the damage and is 4.8x as tough, but is supposed to be 4x the monster (before phase transitions).
Paragon Actions don't make up for control-spell fodder problems. The phase transition does.
Unlike legendary actions, Paragon Actions are a full set of actions. Which makes them a lot more oomph on them and less on the monster's turn.
It also relies heavily on DMs spreading out threat.
The table has a bunch of granular detail. It definitely can't be used to wing it without a computer helping you or a print out.
The entire thing lacks design notes? I mean, the claim you can convert from CR to Level as described is a bit of a stretch.
Lots stuff like "-1 to saving throws" is honestly too much detail.
dave2008
Legend
It is interesting, and I have been aware of their work for years, but it is different from what I am suggesting
dave2008
Legend
I'm not saying it will be easy or even possible. This is a thought exercise. I imagine you have some good ideas here, but I don't have time to go through them now. Any thoughts are welcome, but constructive ones even more so!
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