Pronouns

[glass]

Or, you know, they could just belong to the gender that's being excluded by its use.

...or want to play with people who are!


glass.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

Nevertheless, in practice, if we conceive of the subject of a word as feminine, then we tend to apply a feminine pronoun, not an ambiguous pronoun.

Yet it's impossible that this could work in reverse? That when we hear the pronoun "he", we don't assume that it's masculine?

You're making a large assumption, I think, that people unconsciously separate between the masculine and gender-neutral use of "he", and I don't think that assumption can be supported.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

...or want to play with people who are!

:chuckle: Well, I've had females in my gaming group constantly since 1988, and the pronouns in the rules never had much to do with attracting them to the game or keeping them away, IMO. My group may be atypical -- I often hear about role-playing being male dominated, but that hasn't been the case, in my experience.

Before high-school, my gaming group was exclusively boys. During high school and college, it was both boys and girls. Now, it's men, women, and a couple boys. (The men and women are married couples, and the boys are sons of the adults.) One of the girls who joined our group in 1988 is my wife, now.

This weekend I'll ask the group what they think about the pronoun thing. I already asked my wife. She said she prefers "he," as an ambiguous pronoun, and that using she/he and things like that interrupts the text and makes her roll her eyes. (That doesn't surprise me -- she's an English major, and in college she often complained about stuff like this).

I don't think there's much more to say in this thread, personally. The last thing I want to add is a request for people to keep in mind that the use he/his/him for a generic pronoun is not an indicator of sexism. I'm not sexist, and my wife certainly isn't, but we both use "he" in its traditional, generic sense. We're not ignorant of the debate and controversy, either -- we simply don't agree with the arguments against the traditional use. To automatically assume sexism and base motives of those you disagree with is easy, but usually wrong.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

You're making a large assumption, I think, that people unconsciously separate between the masculine and gender-neutral use of "he", and I don't think that assumption can be supported.

Oops -- you slipped that one in while I was composing what I intended to be my "last post." I think we've just about run the course on this one.

In short, I disagree. As I've said, I think people are smarter than you're giving them credit for, and can tell when you're using "he" in an inclusive sense and when you're using it in a masculine-sense. I don't think it's rocket science.

 

[Mercule]

I prefer the White Wolf method actually... just use she/her.

I haven't picked up the nWoD books. Did they really start doing that? In oWoD, their writer guidelines said to alternate genders by example -- which is what I observed them doing.

Though their old policy was somewhat unwieldy -- like a half-baked version of WotC's policy -- the new one would be ironic indeed. "Let's stop being passively chauvanistic by following established style. We can be intentionally misanthropic, instead, by creating our own."

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Is the following sentence awkward? (Leave aside your feelings about its contents for a moment)

Although Madonna, George Michaels, and Tiffany were all lousy artists, each had his own fan club during the 1980s.

You definitely want to use the singular they there:

Although Madonna, George Michaels, and Tiffany were all lousy artists, each had their own fan club during the 1980s.

This is quite natural and the way someone would approach it if they-- sorry, if he or she-- spoke it aloud.

30 years of Equal Rights does not Standard English Usage make. I can appreciate that, for some, this is only the beginning of a long battle to redefine "his," and perhaps it is even a battle that can be won.

Personally, I think we're more likely to settle back on gender-neutral, singular "they" than we are on the alternating/interchangeable use of he or she or any of the other awkward alternatives.

Usage defines grammar, and simplicity defines usage.




(For the record, in my products, I usually use the WOTC way and alternate pronouns, but it is a conscious choice and difficult to remember to apply at all times. By nature and habit I tend towards singular they.)

 

[prosfilaes]

If someone used "actress" in the first sentence and "actors" in the second, immediately after, I would assume that they are drawing a male vs. female distinction, and that only the males are supposed to go to their trailers, in that case.

So unlike the bat comparison, the meaning of him could require arbitrary context to disambiguate.

You hypothetically could. Nevertheless, in practice, if we conceive of the subject of a word as feminine, then we tend to apply a feminine pronoun, not an ambiguous pronoun.

So if we conceive of the subject of the word as masculine, then we tend to apply a masculine pronoun?

Context. I think people are generally intelligent enough to pick up meaning from context; we do it all the time.

Thirty-four firefighters took part in the annual flag raising ceremony in Aardvarka at the square last Sunday. Each firefighter brought a flag from his station. The event was concluded with great applause by all attending.

Given that that may be the whole of the article on this subject, how does context tell us anything? They could all have been male, the author could have been thinking of firefighters as a male profession, or it could have been the gender-neutral pronoun.

 

[Kerrick]

There's no option for my vote, which is to use the second person, not the third.

I HATE that. Ugh... it makes me cringe every time I read it. I use it in feats, for some reason (it doesn't bother me that much in feats - I don't know why), but in spells, I use "he, him," or "the caster". If I'm doing PrCs, I do it randomly - some are "he", some are "she", which reflects the sample NPC - if the NPC's female, so is the PrC, and vice-versa.

I have an English degree, so I use "he" automatically for gender unknown; I also never use "their" as a gender unknown. Whether or not it's "gaining acceptance," it still seems wrong to me.

 

[Anti-Sean]

There's no option for my vote, which is to use the second person, not the third. PHB p.55 in 2nd person:

You can't use 2nd person pronouns; this is *3rd* edition, so you have to use 3rd person pronouns.

What pronouns do we use when 4E is released?

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

Bah. I'm compelled to keep responding. I failed my willpower saving throw...

So unlike the bat comparison, the meaning of him could require arbitrary context to disambiguate.

As I've repeatedly said, context helps to determine which meaning applies. Common-sense does, too (e.g. the bat comparison).

So if we conceive of the subject of the word as masculine, then we tend to apply a masculine pronoun?

Yes.

Given that that may be the whole of the article on this subject, how does context tell us anything? They could all have been male, the author could have been thinking of firefighters as a male profession, or it could have been the gender-neutral pronoun.

Common sense? Chances are, there were some females among the thirty-four firefighters; I'd read the "his" as being gender-ambiguous, in this excerpt. The sex of the firefighters isn't an important consideration in this piece. If it was important to the story, the writer could've given more precision about the firefighters' sex...but it doesn't matter, in this case.

I simply don't see the big deal.