Proposal: ARG Content for Approved PC Races

jkason

Visitor
I don't know that there was ever significant decision-ing on whether to break down the new racial content into separate proposals or not, so I'm just throwing it all together now, and if we need to split it off, I can edit this post as necessary.

So, I'm proposing LPF adopt the new content from the ARG (alternate traits, feats, spells, equipment) for already-approved PC races (Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, Half-elves, Halflings, Half-orcs, Humans, Aasimars, Tieflings, Merfolk, and Tengus), with the following exceptions:

Explicitly Excluded:

* Blood God Disciple (Half-orc Archetype)
* Wild Caller (Half-Elf Archetype)
* Strongtail (Merfolk Alternate Trait)
* Half-Blood Extraction (Half-orc spell)
* Fiendish Vessel (Tiefling Archetype)
* Obsession Log (Gnome Equipment)

Modified:

* Knack with Poison (Gnome Alternate Trait): There is no crafting in LPF, so this provides no bonus. It also therefor replaces Illusion Resistance ONLY (not IR and Obsessive).
 
I will just say that even though I get no vote I am interested in getting the elven equipment approved because I sort of accidentally purchased one item from the ARG for Fae'shiel without realizing it still hadn't been approved.
 
Blood God Disciple: That archetype is a trap anyways. You are giving up all your summon monster SLAs for 1 evolution for 1 minute. Not 1 minute per level, but one minute per execution. You can't stack the evolutions. If you share at higher levels, you get less per day. You must use the ability within 1 minute of killing an opponent. So, you can't slaughter many and then use each of them. Definite trap.

Wild Caller: I like the idea of a druidic summoner. I want to keep the archetype except strike the one overpowered line of "A wild caller gains 1/4 his class level as bonus evolution points in his eidolon’s evolution pool" while keeping the rest of the sentence. Doing that makes the Wild Caller slightly less powerful than a straight summoner, but has interesting flavorful fluff.

Strongtail: agree, yes

Half-blood Extraction: agree, yes

Fiendish Vessel: Yeah, agreed. But GMs get the right to use one as the BBEG.

Obsession Log: out by reason of consistancy, yes.

Things that worry me:

Tiefling Paladin FC: +1 to damage healed by lay on hands when used on self. (That is +10 hp swift healing to a 10th level paladin, which makes him real difficult to take down. This bonus is twice that of other races as far as I have found.)

My thoughts so far. I haven't had enough time to go through even the standard races with a fine tooth comb yet.

-SK
 

Qik

Visitor
I would say YES to approving everything excepting the ones SK agreed to except, plus the Blood God. I'm excluding the Wild Caller because of SK's desire to discuss it.

Personally, my solution to preventing the Wild Caller from going over-the-top would be to disallow the Half-elf alternate FC bonus and the archetype's bonus evolution points to stack. That way, there's some benefit to the archetype in terms of evolution points (i.e. the PC can spend their FC on something else). I will say though that I can see others not being thrilled about us house-ruling things like this. I'm fine with it, though.
 
so it doesn't appear that making a separate thread for just the approved player character races has made much of a difference in getting this information from the Advanced Races Guide approved for use in Living Pathfinder, does it?

I will repeat I am kind of in a hurry to get this approved since I kind of have a character that has accidentally made a purchase from the Advanced Races Guide. So if it is at all possible can I at the very least get the item as outlined below approved for use in Living Pathfinder since that is the item that is causing me a headache with my character?

Arcane Family Workbook
Price 300 gp
Weight 3 pounds
Description and Rules The elven predilection for becoming wizards and the social benefits that elven wizards enjoy often encourages families to dedicate themselves to wizardly studies for multiple generations. Older elven wizards take note of their own insights into the secrets of arcane magic and compile these thoughts with the ideas of earlier generations to form family workbooks. When used as a reference (an action that typically takes 1d4 full rounds of searching the text), an arcane family workbook grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a Spellcraft checks. This bonus increases to +4 if 1d4 hours are spent referencing the book.

This item is not all that different from the already approved Pathfinder Chronicles (which we renamed the Codices of Sapo so as not to infringe on Campaign Specific Material). The only major differences is that this item applies its bonus to Spellcraft, and it has an additional bonus of +4 to the check if studied for 1d4 hours instead of simply for 1d4 rounds. So I don't see how this would actually be that much of a problem?
 

Maidhc O Casain

Na Bith Mo Riocht Tá!
I don't know that there was ever significant decision-ing on whether to break down the new racial content into separate proposals or not, so I'm just throwing it all together now, and if we need to split it off, I can edit this post as necessary.

So, I'm proposing LPF adopt the new content from the ARG (alternate traits, feats, spells, equipment) for already-approved PC races (Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, Half-elves, Halflings, Half-orcs, Humans, Aasimars, Tieflings, Merfolk, and Tengus), with the following exceptions:

Explicitly Excluded:

* Blood God Disciple (Half-orc Archetype)
* Wild Caller (Half-Elf Archetype)
* Strongtail (Merfolk Alternate Trait)
* Half-Blood Extraction (Half-orc spell)
* Fiendish Vessel (Tiefling Archetype)
* Obsession Log (Gnome Equipment)

Modified:

* Knack with Poison (Gnome Alternate Trait): There is no crafting in LPF, so this provides no bonus. It also therefor replaces Illusion Resistance ONLY (not IR and Obsessive).
YES to this, with the proviso (as always) that it's OK for GMs to use.

so it doesn't appear that making a separate thread for just the approved player character races has made much of a difference in getting this information from the Advanced Races Guide approved for use in Living Pathfinder, does it?

I will repeat I am kind of in a hurry to get this approved since I kind of have a character that has accidentally made a purchase from the Advanced Races Guide. So if it is at all possible can I at the very least get the item as outlined below approved for use in Living Pathfinder since that is the item that is causing me a headache with my character?

Arcane Family Workbook
Price 300 gp
Weight 3 pounds
Description and Rules The elven predilection for becoming wizards and the social benefits that elven wizards enjoy often encourages families to dedicate themselves to wizardly studies for multiple generations. Older elven wizards take note of their own insights into the secrets of arcane magic and compile these thoughts with the ideas of earlier generations to form family workbooks. When used as a reference (an action that typically takes 1d4 full rounds of searching the text), an arcane family workbook grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a Spellcraft checks. This bonus increases to +4 if 1d4 hours are spent referencing the book.

This item is not all that different from the already approved Pathfinder Chronicles (which we renamed the Codices of Sapo so as not to infringe on Campaign Specific Material). The only major differences is that this item applies its bonus to Spellcraft, and it has an additional bonus of +4 to the check if studied for 1d4 hours instead of simply for 1d4 rounds. So I don't see how this would actually be that much of a problem?
YES
 
Summoned, I appear!

The arcane family book, yes. It is minor.

ARG equipment in general, yes. The question raised earlier of "can other races use ..." is actually answered in the ARG. The answer is yes, unless there is a specific mention of restriction to race. On equipment, rarely restricted, feats are almost all listed as race restricted.
 
Okay, I have added the ARG to the wiki. The Wild Caller is pending in committee still.

SK wants to block the 1/4 Evo in the racial entry.
Qik wants to block the half-elf favored bonus for that archetype.

SK's way at 8th level gives 8 HP or 2 Evo points.
Qik's way at 8th level gives 8 HP and 2 Evo points. But, the Summon Nature's Ally list is quite a bit weaker.

Since Qik is busy with real life at the moment and AFK, the wild caller is tabled until later.
 

Qik

Visitor
The Wild Caller is pending in committee still.

SK wants to block the 1/4 Evo in the racial entry.
Qik wants to block the half-elf favored bonus for that archetype.

SK's way at 8th level gives 8 HP or 2 Evo points.
Qik's way at 8th level gives 8 HP and 2 Evo points. But, the Summon Nature's Ally list is quite a bit weaker.
The relative weakness of SNA compared to SM is in part why I preferred my solution, since it affords you the extra evolution points whilst freeing up your FCB. Plus, the summoning feats specific to SNA are now available, which helps to make up for SNA's relative weakness.

I'm fine with either solution, I suppose; this was just the rational for my specific one.
 
Archetypes should always be a little weaker than the general class, but having the change in focus provide benefits in one concentrated area. Most summoners don't dip into their SLA castings much. So, Qik's method gains too much for weaker SLAs that are hardly used. The eidolon and summoner combined are significantly stronger when they ignore the SLAs.

SK's method puts the archetype squarely in the category of "don't bother, unless you really want to cast SNA instead of SM." If a summoned owlbear appears, people expect it to only have to elude it for a minute while hunting for the druid to deal with. Having it stick around for 10 minutes on its rampage is the advantageous surprise the archetype has going for it. When you get into the levels where you are getting giants, it gets real interesting. SM spells at that level are simply dealt with via blanket dismissals/banishments of those that are outsiders.

In other words, if the significant change of the archetype is not the focus of the archetype, it should be back to the drawing board.
 

jkason

Visitor
I guess my general question is: does the archetype bring sufficiently interesting fluff to bother with modifying it? If it were something that felt really unique and flavorful but had a problematic mechanic, I might be more for tweaking, but I'm not sure that I find 'summoner with a pinch of druid' inspiring enough to be worth the house-ruling, myself.
 

Qik

Visitor
Although I'm not *entirely* convinced, I'd be happy to acquiesce to SK's method, as he makes a fair point regarding the fact that the SLAs might not commonly be used.

As to your point, jk, I'd be up for letting the archetype languish until someone wanted to use it. Mechanically, there are enough summoning feats specific to Summon Nature's Ally (Starlight Summons, etc) that I can see the reason someone would want to play a SNA-focused summoner. That being said, I have no desire to play the archetype myself, so I wouldn't feel its absence.
 
Well... If I had a fourth character slot, I would probably try it out. But, as it is currently, I don't want to rewrite any of my current characters. Kalgor's background is close enough that he could easily slip into the archetype except for the race restriction. That and Gragnor doesn't check out often enough to really use the changed SLAs. The archetype would have been far more interesting and attractive if it was compatible with Master Summoner.

Agreed. Shelved until someone asks for it, and then with the restriction of dropping the extra 1/4 Evo point per level.
 

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