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Proposal: Fighter/mage/thief: quick and dirty concurrent multiclassing/gestalt rules
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<blockquote data-quote="Fanaelialae" data-source="post: 7022266" data-attributes="member: 53980"><p>I agree that what you and I think is cool is a very significant factor, but it's not the only significant factor (at least for me). I was in a bit of a rush when I wrote my last post, so I failed to clearly convey that point.</p><p></p><p>Personally, I think it would be awesome to give casters slots from all of their classes. I'm sure it would make my Cl/Wiz player very happy, and I like it when my players are happy.</p><p></p><p>I just don't think it would be balanced. I want someone who chooses to play a 5e-multiclass Cl 11 / Wiz 9 to have made a viable choice, even if played next to an AD&D-multiclass Cl 15 / Wiz 15. Under my system I believe that I have achieved that, because the 5e PC has 4/3/3/3/3/2/2/1/1 slots vs the AD&D PC's 4/3/3/3/2/1/1/1/0. IMO, if the AD&D system PC effectively has 8/6/6/6/4/2/2/2/0, then the 5e PC is a joke by comparison.</p><p></p><p>Another way to illustrate the difference is using spell points. </p><p></p><p>The 5e PC would have 133 SP.</p><p>My AD&D PC would have 94 SP.</p><p>Your AD&D PC would have 188 SP total (albeit split into two pools).</p><p></p><p>To go back to my example from my last post, at 4th level Eins has 17 SP, Zwei has 28 SP total (split between two pools), and Drei has 42 SP total (split across three pools).</p><p>At 8th level Eins has 44 SP, Zwei has 64 total SP, and Drei has 81 total SP.</p><p>At 12th level Eins has 73 SP, Zwei has 114 total SP, and Drei also has 114 total SP.</p><p>At 16th level Eins has 94 SP, Zwei has 146 total SP, and Drei has 192 total SP.</p><p>At 19th level Eins has 123 SP, Zwei has 166 total SP, and Drei has 219 total SP.</p><p></p><p>I just can't see how that could possibly be balanced. Note that I'm not suggesting that you change your system, I'm simply explaining why I didn't go the same route.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Conversely, I don't think that the ASIs are a balance issue (or at least not a serious issue unless perhaps you are playing with powergamers).</p><p></p><p>[ATTACH]81019[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p>As you can see, for the majority of these three characters' careers there isn't much more difference between them than if one of them had picked variant human. Slightly more in the case of the triple classed guy, but you'd really have to optimize hard to keep him from being MAD (definitely not a case of the player simply wanting to play a fighter/mage/thief). The odds are that he will be spending most of them getting his ability scores into a functional range, not on feats or even maxed stats. IMO, it doesn't have much potential for craziness until characters are in the third of fourth tier (by which point crazy is the new normal). As such, I don't consider it an issue. Feats are nice, but outside the hands of an optimizer they're really not OP in my experience. I actually offer my player a free feat or magic item if they write a background for their character, and I've yet to see it upset things (and most of them always write a background). Given the number of TPKs I racked up in the past year (the dice can be a cruel mistress) I don't see the free feat creating any imbalance whatsoever.</p><p></p><p>Again, YMMV, as I know from our previous discussions that your players enjoy optimizing their characters and party, so I can see how this might be problematic in your game. Again, just sharing my POV.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Fanaelialae, post: 7022266, member: 53980"] I agree that what you and I think is cool is a very significant factor, but it's not the only significant factor (at least for me). I was in a bit of a rush when I wrote my last post, so I failed to clearly convey that point. Personally, I think it would be awesome to give casters slots from all of their classes. I'm sure it would make my Cl/Wiz player very happy, and I like it when my players are happy. I just don't think it would be balanced. I want someone who chooses to play a 5e-multiclass Cl 11 / Wiz 9 to have made a viable choice, even if played next to an AD&D-multiclass Cl 15 / Wiz 15. Under my system I believe that I have achieved that, because the 5e PC has 4/3/3/3/3/2/2/1/1 slots vs the AD&D PC's 4/3/3/3/2/1/1/1/0. IMO, if the AD&D system PC effectively has 8/6/6/6/4/2/2/2/0, then the 5e PC is a joke by comparison. Another way to illustrate the difference is using spell points. The 5e PC would have 133 SP. My AD&D PC would have 94 SP. Your AD&D PC would have 188 SP total (albeit split into two pools). To go back to my example from my last post, at 4th level Eins has 17 SP, Zwei has 28 SP total (split between two pools), and Drei has 42 SP total (split across three pools). At 8th level Eins has 44 SP, Zwei has 64 total SP, and Drei has 81 total SP. At 12th level Eins has 73 SP, Zwei has 114 total SP, and Drei also has 114 total SP. At 16th level Eins has 94 SP, Zwei has 146 total SP, and Drei has 192 total SP. At 19th level Eins has 123 SP, Zwei has 166 total SP, and Drei has 219 total SP. I just can't see how that could possibly be balanced. Note that I'm not suggesting that you change your system, I'm simply explaining why I didn't go the same route. Conversely, I don't think that the ASIs are a balance issue (or at least not a serious issue unless perhaps you are playing with powergamers). [ATTACH=CONFIG]81019._xfImport[/ATTACH] As you can see, for the majority of these three characters' careers there isn't much more difference between them than if one of them had picked variant human. Slightly more in the case of the triple classed guy, but you'd really have to optimize hard to keep him from being MAD (definitely not a case of the player simply wanting to play a fighter/mage/thief). The odds are that he will be spending most of them getting his ability scores into a functional range, not on feats or even maxed stats. IMO, it doesn't have much potential for craziness until characters are in the third of fourth tier (by which point crazy is the new normal). As such, I don't consider it an issue. Feats are nice, but outside the hands of an optimizer they're really not OP in my experience. I actually offer my player a free feat or magic item if they write a background for their character, and I've yet to see it upset things (and most of them always write a background). Given the number of TPKs I racked up in the past year (the dice can be a cruel mistress) I don't see the free feat creating any imbalance whatsoever. Again, YMMV, as I know from our previous discussions that your players enjoy optimizing their characters and party, so I can see how this might be problematic in your game. Again, just sharing my POV. [/QUOTE]
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