D&D 5E Proposal: Fighter/mage/thief: quick and dirty concurrent multiclassing/gestalt rules

[FormerlyHemlock]

[Remarks: with this variation, you gain some potential synergies that in some ways make a fighter/mage more powerful than a fighter and a mage working together. For instance, you can wear heavy armor and cast a Blur spell and Shield when hit, which is more than twice as good as either heavy armor or Shield + Blur spells by itself. But you're more fragile (fewer HP) than a fighter and a mage, you do less damage (get half as many actions), and your attributes are spread thinner because you're only getting half as many ASIs to boost both your spells (Intelligence) and your fighting (Dexterity or Strength). It remains to be seen whether a party of three multi-classed PCs is stronger or weaker in practice than a party of six single- or dual-classed PCs, but it will certainly be more complicated and potentially more interesting! -Max/Hemlock]


Rule 0.) For purposes of this discussion and for historical reasons, 5E PHB-style multiclassing will be referred to as "dual-classing" and this proposal will be referred to as "multi-classing". Where ambiguity exists, this proposal may be referred to as "concurrent multiclassing" or "old-school multiclassing" to resolve the ambiguity.

Rule 1.) Dual-classing and multiclassing are mutually exclusive and must be decided at character creation time. You cannot dual-class and multi-class with the same character. Some DMs may wish to impose additional restrictions, e.g. only humans can dual-class and only demihumans can multi-class, or perhaps only certain multiclass combinations are available (e.g. paladin/warlock/rogue may not be an option). Do what works for your campaign.

Rule 2.) When you multi-class, you may have either two or three classes. You split your experience among them evenly and level them up simultaneously.

Example: John is a 1st level fighter/rogue. He earns 300 XP from adventuring, which gives him 150 XP as a fighter and 150 XP as a rogue. Since he needs 300 XP to reach 2nd level and has only 150, he does not level up until he gains another 150 XP in each class.

Rule 3.) You must meet the same ability score prerequisites as a dual-classed character, using the usual PHB table for multi-classing ability score prerequisites.

Rule 4.) At first level, you may take the best HP, armor and weapon proficiencies of all of your classes. You may select one of your classes from which to gain saving throw proficiencies--you do not gain all saving throws from all of your classes.

Example: Rupert is a 10th level Hunter/Battlemaster/Illusionist. Because Battlemasters are proficient in all weapons and armor, Rupert is too. Because Hunters and Battlemasters both have d10 (6), Rupert does too, even though Illusionists have only d6 (4). When he goes up to 11th level, Rupert will gain d10 (6) HP plus his Con bonus. Rupert is proficient in Strength and Constitution saves because he chose at first level to take his saving throws from his Fighter class.

Rule 5.) Class features with the same name may only be gained once. For purposes of this rule, "Nth level ASI" is considered a distinct feature. Spellcasting is an exception (see rule 6).

Example: Rupert is a 10th level Hunter/Battlemaster/Illusionist. He has one fighting style (Archery) chosen as a fighter at first level; he has earned 3 ASIs so far at levels 4, 6 (as a fighter), and 8.

Rule 6.) Spellcasting is tracked separately for each class. You cannot mix and match spell slots or spell points between classes unless they are the same type of spellcasting, i.e. come from the same class spell list. (So basically, Arcane Tricksters and Eldritch Knights are cumulative with wizards.)

Example: As a 10th level Hunter/Battlemaster/Illusionist, Rupert has 4/3/2 slots for Ranger spells (or 27 spell points by DMG spell point rules) and 4/3/3/3/2 slots for wizard spells (or 64 spell points). Wizard spell points/slots cannot be spent on ranger spells, and vice versa.

Example: Rupert's friend Durk Dursley is a 10th level Eldritch Knight/Abjuror. Durk has 4/2 wizard spell slots (17 spell points) as an Eldritch Knight and 4/3/3/3/2 wizard slots (64 spell points) as an Abjuror, which means he has a total of 6/5/3/3/2 (81 spell points) wizard spell slots (spell points) to spend on any wizard spells he knows as an Eldritch Knight or has prepared as an Abjuror.

Note: when Rupert's single-classed friend Olaf the Stout is a 17th level wizard with 240,000 XP and 107 spell points with access to 9th level wizard spells, Rupert will still be 10th level with 80,000 XP in each class and 91 total spell points with access to 3rd level ranger spells and 5th level wizard spells.

 

[jaelis]

Seems like this would be overpowered at low levels. 2700 xp, for instance?

 

[Fanaelialae]

I've actually been using something similar IMC for a few months now. I don't have too much data, since the first old-school-multiclassed character ended up dying in a TPK when the low level party was jumped by two trolls and didn't have enough fire to stop the second one from regenerating (they killed the first and downed the second; he just got back up). In my latest campaign my player decided to make a nature cleric / abjuration wizard, and although we've only had one session thus far, he was able to contribute effectively.

I voted 'Would want to change something first' because my rules are slightly different.

For starters, I call them hybrid characters (because I didn't want to rename multiclassing and confuse my players).

I don't require them to meet ability score requirements (if they want to play a 10 Int Wizard let it be on their heads).

I let them mix and match saving throws between the common saves (Dex, Con, Wis) and the uncommon saves (Str, Int, Cha). For example, a fighter/rogue might choose Dex and Str as their proficient saves. He couldn't, however, take Dex and Con since he'd be trading an uncommon save for a common save.

I was having the player take the average of hit point rolls for the sake of nostalgia. In the case of the aforementioned cleric/wizard, he would roll 1d8 and 1d6, average the rolls, and add Con. However, I've noticed that this leads to very average hit points (which should have been obvious but I didn't consider it when I did the design). As such, I think I will use your idea and just allow the player to take the better hit die.

I don't see anything about skills. In my system, they gain all tool proficiencies granted by any of their classes (these are typically iconic). They gain the highest number of skills granted by any of their classes, and then may choose that number of skills from the combined skill lists of all of their classes.

FWIW, they also get the highest starting gold from among their classes.

I allow class features to double up features following the same rules as multiclassing. A fighter/ranger could gain fighting style twice (but not the SAME fighting style) but would not gain the benefits of extra attack twice. In the case of ASIs, if gained at the same level they must be applied to different ability scores and/or feats. My rationale here is that hybrids have a higher potential for MAD, which this addresses. They might be able to have a bit of a bonanza with feats, but they're already a level or more behind the other players so I don't expect this to be significantly easier to abuse for a hybrid than for a single classed character.

Similarly, their prepared/known spells are gained per class, but their spell slots are as a single classed character. I think that allowing a hybrid to double (or triple) up on spell slots might be a bit much. 5e tries to rein in spellcasters by limiting their number of spells per day, so allowing them to ignore that limitation seems like it might be overkill.

My design principle was breadth, not depth. A hybrid character is much more versatile but significantly less powerful than a single classed character with the same xp. (The less powerful aspect is mainly due to the fact that they're usually a level or more behind the rest of the party).

I also created xp tables to simplify the xp tracking process (I just doubled/tripled the amount of xp needed so that they only need to tally a single xp total, rather than splitting it). The ECL is just the level the single classed characters will be when the hybrid first attain that level (it's merely there for comparison):



EDIT
Just a clarification, Pact Magic is handled the same as Hemlock's system (Pact Magic slots can only be used for Pact Magic spells and visa versa).

If getting all the ASIs proves too potent, I'll change each additional ASI gained at the same level into a +1 to a different stat.

Someone in this thread mentioned averaging the Hit Dice (rather than rolls of the Hit Dice) which I thought was a great idea and have adopted. I average the Hit Dice and then round up. So a Cleric/Wizard has a 1d8 HD. A Barb/Rogue/Sorcerer would have a 1d10. It's much easier for my less math oriented players to grasp than (1d8 + 1d6)/2.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Interesting. I initially thought that it might be balanced out by the multiclassed characters having a lower proficiency bonus than the dual-classed ones, but it looks like they'd only generally be a maximum of 1 behind, and often at the same level.

Remember that levels 1-12ish are generally the career length of a character. Something that balances out at level 15 isn't really relevant in most cases.

I'd have to look at the maths a bit more but my initial thought is that I'd only this option as replacing subclass.
So you could play a Fighter/Mage, but not a Battlemaster/Abjuror.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Interesting. I initially thought that it might be balanced out by the multiclassed characters having a lower proficiency bonus than the dual-classed ones, but it looks like they'd only generally be a maximum of 1 behind, and often at the same level.

Remember that levels 1-12ish are generally the career length of a character. Something that balances out at level 15 isn't really relevant in most cases.

I'd have to look at the maths a bit more but my initial thought is that I'd only this option as replacing subclass.
So you could play a Fighter/Mage, but not a Battlemaster/Abjuror.

It's more significant than the XP Tables show. Even at low levels the hybrid spends significant amounts of time lower level than the rest of the party. For example, for half of the adventure time that it takes normal character to go from 2nd to 3rd level, the hybrid is 1st level. He does intermittently catch up, but quickly falls behind again. 1000 xp after the dual class hybrid reaches 5th level and catches up to the party, the rest of the party hits level 6. From there on out the hybrid never catches up. Obviously, this is even more significant for the triple hybrid (who starts behind the party and never catches up).

 

[jaelis]

Yeah but a 5th level hybrid seems better than a 6th level single.

 

[Fanaelialae]

This might better illustrate what I was trying to explain in my last post:

 

[Ath-kethin]

All in all, I like it. It's a little on the complicated side for 5e, but such is the nature of the beast.

Would I use it? If somebody asked, I'd give it a shot. I really detest WotC era dip-and-dash multiclassing (I don't allow multiclassing in my games) and have been yearning for a 2e style option. How well would it work? Time would tell.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Yeah but a 5th level hybrid seems better than a 6th level single.

That really depends on your point of view and what you think of as 'better'. A 5th level hybrid has a wider array of abilities to draw upon than a 6th level single, but the single has more hit dice and higher level abilities. Also, that 5th level hybrid will still be 5th level when the single reaches 7th level and gets all the benefits thereof (such as 4th level spells).

While my data is admittedly limited, from what I've seen hybrids are a bit weaker than singles in a straight fight. In my last session, the party was waylaid by a pair of wyrmling siblings working together to create their first hoard. (I rolled a double nat 20 random encounter, which is the worst possible result.) Both dragons won initiative and breathed on the party. The 3rd level barbarian stayed on his feet (albeit at less than half hp). The 3rd level rogue stayed on his feet (admittedly, on his last legs). The '2nd level' hybrid cleric/wizard was down and dying despite having his ward up and at full power (although it might have been a different story had he prepared Absorb Elements). Fortunately, one of the characters spoke draconic and was able to negotiate a surrender, although it meant that the trio had to limp back to town in their birthday suits...

 

[jaelis]

So try a hybrid paladin/sorcerer out. I think it would be overwhelming but maybe in practice it works. You do need to test it on the optimum cases though.