Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="FormerlyHemlock" data-source="post: 7022895" data-attributes="member: 6787650">I would use it as a 5th level spell in any situation where I was worried about death more than my profit margin. E.g. I have to invade a Mind Flayer dungeon. Boy, it sure would be nice to have an Earth Elemental who could scout for me without taking up my concentration. By Planar Binding the elemental in advance, I can have an Earth Elemental and a stinking cloud to give the earth elemental advantage and also incapacitate any mind flayers. Or maybe I just want to have an Earth Elemental (via Planar Binding) and a Fire Elemental at the same time.Spending a thousand gold pieces is better than getting killed.(Also, Wall of Force is not to be sneezed at, despite having nothing to do with minionmancy.)Still, I agree with your main point, that 11th level is where Planar Binding really pulls ahead. I don't think it matters in practice because either minionmancer has more minions than he can shake a stick at, all the time. In my experience Necromancers don't usually bother with more than a dozen skeletons at once unless they are on an active war footing--the same scenario where you'd use Planar Binding despite the cost.I don't agree that the Necro/Druid is clearly superior before 85,000 XP (which is what I assume you meant by "11th level"). I think you probably aren't using your undead to their full potential. Let's take 50,000 XP as an arbitrary measurement point. At that point, the Necro/Druid has 38 + 7 spell points as a Necromancer 7 (maxes out at 40 skeletons) and 38 spell points as a Moon Druid 7, which will let him conjure 8 CR 1/4 animals. The pure Necromancer has 57 + 9 spell points, which means he maxes out at 70 skeletons, and his skeletons do an extra +1 damage and have 2 extra HP.Which is tougher, 40 AC 16 skeletons (scale mail) with 20 HP apiece doing (longbows) d8 + 5 damage, plus 8 AC 14 giant poisonous snakes with 11 HP doing d4+4+3d6 damage; or 70 AC 16 skeletons with 22 HP apiece doing d8 + 6 damage? 888 HP doing 567 damage (mod hit percentage/saving throw rate), or 1540 HP doing 735 damage (mod hit percentage)?I haven't even gotten into things like Stinking Cloud combos, nets, and caltrops.If you play with spell slots instead of spell points, it comes out as 44 skeletons for the pure Necromancer (968 HP doing 462 damage) vs. 22 skeletons and 8 snakes (528 HP doing 395 damage). No change to the conclusion: pure necro is still better at minionmancy.I assure you that I'm not missing anything. You're just underestimating the pure Necromancer, and perhaps overestimating Conjure Animals. The Necro/Druid doesn't begin to beat the pure necro at his own game. What he can do is whistle up a horde of animals on the fly (1 action), which makes him better at reacting to trouble he didn't anticipate.I think I've shown why this isn't true. By 50,000 XP, the Necro/Druid will generally have fewer minions and more druid spells--he can have a skeleton army and cast Pass Without Trace to smuggle it into places at +10 to Stealth. (Also, wildshape.) The Necromancer will have a bigger, tougher army and more powerful wizard spells. I'm not saying 50,000 XP is the first point at which the Necromancer pulls ahead; it's just a random counterexample to your "not before 11th level" claim. If I had to guess I'd guesstimate that the pure necro is probably already ahead by 7th level, especially when you consider that he can up-armor and equip his skeletons and zombies in a way that cannot be done for conjured animals, but I haven't done the math to know for sure.I'm not in the least worried about the pure Necromancer losing his niche to Necro/Druids.Sure, I know that. If I didn't want to be having this conversation, I wouldn't be. My "really going to make me" remark was levity, not genuine bitterness.</blockquote>

Verification